Episode 111: Freedom in Authenticity: Unmasking and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome [featuring Jamie Roberts]

Show Notes

In this episode, Patrick Casale and Jamie Roberts discussed the powerful impact of authenticity in the mental health profession. We explored the connection between imposter syndrome and masking, and how embracing our true selves can lead to greater success and fulfillment in our practices.

3 key takeaways:

1. Authenticity builds trust: As mental health professionals, it's essential to create a safe and trusting space for our clients. By being open and genuine about our own struggles, we can foster a stronger connection and create a sense of empathy and understanding. Authenticity allows clients to feel seen, heard, and accepted, which can significantly enhance the therapy process.
2. Embrace your uniqueness: The pressure to conform to societal norms and expectations can be overwhelming, especially when starting a private practice. However, trying to fit into a mold that doesn't align with who we truly are can hinder our success. Instead, celebrate your uniqueness and precisely who you are, as it will attract the right clients who resonate with your values and approach. Remember, being authentic paves the way for authenticity in others.
3. Language matters: The words we use in our marketing and communication play a significant role in reducing barriers to seeking therapy. Avoid the facades of professionalism and instead prioritize relatability. By speaking authentically and in a casual tone, potential clients will feel safer to reach out and trust that you are someone they can connect with. Let your language be a tool for breaking down barriers and creating an inclusive therapeutic environment.

Remember, authenticity is a superpower, and by embracing it, we can not only transform our businesses but also make a meaningful impact on the lives of those we serve. Let's continue to break down barriers, create connections, and promote healing together. 🌟

More about Jamie:

Jamie Roberts LMFT (she/her) is a neurodivergent therapist who creates a safe and affirming space for neurodivergent and LGBT+ youth. After receiving her ADHD diagnosis as an adult she is motivated to become the person she needed when she was younger by providing education and advocacy for the next generation. She is the author of Mindfulness for Teen Anxiety and founder of Equilibrium Counseling Services in Southern California.

Grab her 15% discount on book purchases of Mindfulness for Teen Anxiety. Code: ALLTHINGSPP

You can purchase the book here: equilibriumcs.com/buy-the-book

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I would also like to thank Therapy Notes for sponsoring this episode.

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone, you are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale. I'm joined today by Jamie Roberts. She is a LMFT in California and the owner of Equilibrium Counseling Services for a… Words are hard today, y'all, that's one of those days, a fellow neurodivergent entrepreneur, and therapist, mental health professional, really cool creative human being, works with kiddos, teens in the California area, who are also neurodiverse. And I think that's really amazing because we don't have a lot of those offerings. And I know that's not what we're going to talk about today. But I just want to highlight all the cool things that you're doing out there.

So, today, you brought this topic to me and I really enjoy it because we talk about impostor syndrome from so many different angles and lenses on this podcast. And we are going to talk about unmasking and how impostor syndrome plays a role in masking and how you show up both professionally and personally.

So, Jamie, thanks for coming on and being patient with my calendar, and also, for suggesting this topic.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Obviously, I'm excited to be here, and talking about masking and neurodivergence is my favorite thing. So, pairing that with impostor syndrome, which is a central theme for your podcast just sounds like a cool terrain. So, I'm excited to dig into it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, me too. So, tell me a little bit about what you were thinking when you were thinking about the relation and correlation between impostor syndrome and masking? And what's happening for people when they are struggling with some of these things that come up because I think we all experience a level of self-doubt, and insecurity, and vulnerability. And it can be really paralyzing. And, you know, the goal is always to help people through that paralyzation process because what we don't want impostor syndrome to do and what it so often does to people, is it dictates how you move forward both personally, but more importantly, professionally in your life, and how you pursue your passion projects and your goals. And it convinces you that you shouldn't even try or you shouldn't even show up. So, yeah, take it away.

JAMIE ROBERTS: So, when I think of masking, like it being, like, a classically autistic term, as masking, you're covering up some of your authentic traits in order to fit in with whatever atmosphere you're going into. So, whether that be the professional realm that we're talking about, or just out to the grocery store of covering up or hiding parts of yourself that you think won't be accepted, or maybe ridiculed, or may be questioned.

And so when I think about it on the broader professional idea of impostor syndrome are the ways that we maybe conform or make ourselves smaller to fit what we think is expected of us, and then doing a disservice to ourselves and our potential clients are not being able to show up as their authentic self because of that fear of… and sometimes a very realistic fear. And there is an absolute safety piece out with masking that shows up. But how do we balance that in the space of that I need too, to be okay, and I'm doing this at the defense that the threat may not necessarily be there.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I like that you named it and framed it that way because it is a very real fear and risk for certain populations of people. And that's absolutely valid. And I think that there is also the irrational fear that comes up for a lot of entrepreneurs, people who are starting practices, expanding, scaling, creating anything that you think I have to show up in society in a certain way so that people are either going to buy my stuff, like my stuff, trust my stuff. And if I don't, then it's going to fail. And if I really reveal, like, who I am, and how I show up, and my authentic self, and voice, and presence, people aren't going to like that. And maybe that feels unprofessional. And that's something I hear all the time and I think that's a word that gets thrown out around in the therapy and mental health space a lot.

And I think when you are showing up inauthentically or disingenuous, it's across the board. That means, like, your marketing is not really ringing true, your clients can sense it, maybe you're not really feeling grounded and rooted in your value system and your business, maybe you're just feeling disconnected from your ideas, and your creativity, and your approach. So, what are your thoughts on that stuff?

JAMIE ROBERTS: I think that is so true because if it's not… Like, I think of a hat and a mask as two different things. And a mask separates me from the person in front of me, right? It's a barrier to who I am at them connecting with me and me connecting with them, versus the hat, I wear a different hat when I'm with my client, when I'm with my supervisees, when I'm with my friends, but all the time I'm still Jamie. It's just my boundaries and my expressions are going to shift based on the role that I'm in versus a mask, I think, blocks that and doesn't allow them to show up. And that blocking is going to come across the people who are seeking that authentic connection.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. And I think, you know, one thing that I've always done really well, and not always intentionally is show up as authentically as possible. And I think that I've realized over the years that people are really attracted and drawn to that type of presence. And I'm just like, that's just the only way I know how to be. But I have more privilege than most to be able to show up how I want to show up.

But in business ownership, you know, especially initially, and I've talked about this endlessly on this podcast, and in general, I kept myself small for so long because of my own fears, and insecurities, and self-doubts, and impostor syndrome, and lack of belief in my abilities, or why would anyone buy this, I'm not creative enough, someone else is doing this better, I don't know enough about this to, like, claim this.

And those thoughts, those patterns, and that negative self-talk, that stuff is really painful. And it can really dictate how your entrepreneurial journey goes. And it can prevent you from taking risks, it can paralyze you in perfectionism so that you never really publish or release what you're creating to the world. And it can really ensure, like you mentioned, that you play smaller than you need to, that you don't take up space, and that is really sad to witness for people who have such brilliance, and creativity, and presence, and could offer so much in these spaces. But the inability to work through that blockage is really present and really prevalent.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Absolutely, I had the challenge and privilege of working on my unmasking the last couple of years, and big one with the pandemic, but also a big personal upset in my life allowed me to unmask, and go through this ongoing process, and take up more space. And then a big thing I'm working on with, dyeing my hair purple, and wearing my funky earrings, and letting my full self come out has so shifted the trajectory of my business of, I think, initially, I did live in that box of being buttoned up, looking a certain way, being able to appeal… I work with teenagers, but I was trying to appeal to their parents, will this parent trust me with their kid? Do I look mature enough? Do I look professional enough that they will trust my insight?

And I kind of shifted over into, "I want that kid to trust me." And I authentically show up very playful and very, like, colorful and energetic that I want the kid to connect. And when the kid connects, the parents are going to trust that.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. How have you noticed a shift, not only professionally, because it sounds like you're noticing that your target audience really aligns with who you are. And I know that y'all have a very successful group practice in California. So, you're doing something right.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Mm-hmm (affirmative.)

PATRICK CASALE: How have you noticed it show up though, for you, emotionally and personally, to be able to shift and to be authentic Jamie, unmasked version of Jamie.

JAMIE ROBERTS: It's so much less energy to have to put forward, to think about, like, so this morning getting ready for today I was thinking about this little box and how to show up in this little box, and like, could I wear my funky earrings? Could I wear my overalls? And then stopped, you know, being like knowing what this podcast is about, but having to undo that whole thought process. And just the moments it shows up and I'm like, "Wow, I was doing this constantly before." And so, there's an increased energy I have because I'm not putting my energy there. And so going through the day I'm more comfortable in my skin, I'm more comfortable in my space, and I can divert that thought process, and that energy to the places I want to put it versus where I feel like I have to put it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, what I hear you saying is it's liberation in a way.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: And I think for most people who are masking in any capacity, whether it's identity-related, whether it's because you're showing up in an ableist neurotypical world, maybe it's just not safe to be yourself, I understand how much mental energy and anguish goes into, one, trying to protect yourself, but two, showing up inauthentically. And it means that it impacts your reactions, it impacts your conversations, it impacts how you show up on social media, in your business, it impacts your marketing, it impacts your interpersonal sense of self, everything is impacted.

And what I've realized throughout this journey over the last few years, and creating a following, and creating a business that people, it's crazy to think about that. Like, I think about the term influencer, which I fucking hate, but like people are emailing and listening all over the world to my voice. And that is a really weird feeling. But I think it's because of my ability to have worked through some of this stuff and to be comfortable with who I am.

And my autistic diagnosis, I know that we're not going to talk about this much on this podcast today, I think is a grief relief process, like I've talked about before, but it's also unbelievably freeing to say like, this is how I'm going to show up, and this is just how I move through the world. And it gives you a better understanding.

But I've also realized that the more you can show up authentically, whether it's your marketing, whether it's in your counseling sessions, whether it's in just the way that you move through the world, the more you are going to create this ripple effect for people who cannot, for people who wish that they were able to show up that way, but they just feel like, "Hey, there's this barrier here." And whatever that barrier may be real or perceived.

And I get a ton of messages from people of like, "Thank you for saying this thing. Thank you for showing up this way. Thank you for talking about this topic, like…" And for me, I'm like, "I just don't understand how I couldn't. But I also understand like, the way my brain works versus other people's, but I think it has such an impact on how you attract and repel clientele, too. And how the write people are going to be attracted to you, if you're able to show up authentically.

And I also wholeheartedly believe that relatability is accessibility. And if you are relatable as a mental health professional, and you self-disclose about your own struggle, and I'm going to put an asterisk in there for those of you who are like, "No, that's unethical and like, no, it's not about you." Like, if you are offering a glimpse into what it's like to struggle as a mental health professional, or you are put on a pedestal, it helps normalize and destigmatize.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Absolutely, absolutely, that relational component is everything. And you have to show up too. That whole blank slate thing or being able to like, "No, I'm not going to reveal anything about myself." But you're wanting somebody else… Oh, I saw on a video, was probably on TikTok because I love it over there, where somebody who was talking about that going to your master's program for counseling is teaching you how to mask, it's teaching you how to hide your affect, how to speak in a tone that is soothing, how to present in a way, how to deliver information in a receivable way, that it teaches you how to hide your true self to show up in that space.

And how are we supposed to as therapists and as business owners, with our employees, encourage people to be themselves and accept themselves when we are completely hidden in that process? And so, that aspect of when therapeutically appropriate, but more often than not sharing those little tidbits and being a real person in the room that people connect to, also.

PATRICK CASALE: It makes a huge fucking difference. And I think the era of blank slate head nodding, how does it make you feel therapy is over. We're coming to an end. And we have to understand that the cultural importance of being able to disclose, the importance of being able to disclose and connect with neurodiverse clientele, this is a major, major way to build and establish trust, rapport.

You know, we're in a profession where we are selling relational work, and you cannot do that if you are so buttoned up and unable to be yourself that you feel like you're constantly going to be unethical, you're constantly going to say something inappropriate. Like, I really do think that's a lot of unnecessary pressure.

And that goes as far as like, "What do I do if I run into my client in the community?" It's like, "It's a fucking community. You're going to run into your clients." Like, unless you're seeing clients from across the country, you're probably going to run into your clients in everyday life. We lose sight over the fact that we are humans, and that our clientele are humans, and that we are looking to establish relationship, safe, healthy, trusting relationships. That cannot be done if you're so guarded that you aren't allowed to be yourself.

And you know, I have a group practice here and we take photos, specifically, in the area where there's a lot of graffiti, and murals, and bright colors. And I encourage my clinicians to show off their tattoos, or their dyed hair, or like, clinicians are like, "Can I wear shorts to session?" I'm like, "Who the fuck cares? Why is that unprofessional?" Like, I don't care.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Yeah. The halls at my counseling center are just covered in art, art from in session, art from our groups, we have a mindfulness paint night, and there's art everywhere because I want people to self-express. And if it's out there, more will come in. And like, I think that goes to like, when you are being authentic people are drawn to that. And the people who are going to connect to your authenticity, it's going to be neared, it's going to be shared. And now those interactions, and now those social engagements, and those professional alignments are going to be so much more rich and specific because it's the realness that's connecting. And you're not going to appeal to everyone. I don't appeal to everyone. I'm too much for a lot of people. And that is super cool, no worries. I don't have to be your flavor. But for a lot of people, I am. And that is really exciting.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think that is the epitome of being able to unmask and allow yourself to feel comfortable in who you are and how you show up in the world. And you're not going to be for everybody, to all of you listening. Like, whether you're just starting out, whether you're growing, scaling, creating other programs, that's one thing that you really have to work through, is this idea and mentality that I have to be for everybody in this profession. It's not human nature for us to have these blank slates where everybody is going to like your personality, or everyone's going to like how you show up on social media or everyone's going to even connect to how you do the work that you do. And that's okay because there are so many people who are in need of your services.

So, like, someone's like, "I don't like the fact that you come to work with tattoos showing, or dyed hair, or that you curse in your content." I cannot tell you how many times I get that comment, then you're not for me, and I'm not for you, and that's okay. And I will send you to a referral source where you will be the right person for that. Like, that's just the nature of the work work that we do, and just to work through this facade of like, professionalism, it's so ableist and it's so rooted in white supremacy culture. Like, we have to start tearing these walls down because if you're trying to heal and do healing work, we have to understand that healing work is also community-based. Like, it's not as simplistic as just one 50-minute session a week. Like, we need community, we need connection, and we need to be able to surround ourselves with people who we can be ourselves around. And I think that's so important. And it's missed all the time.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Absolutely. Some of the most the best advice I got during my traineeship from my supervisor was that therapist self-care happens in the session, not after session, not on the weekends. I know we talk about self-care, but like, it happens in this session. So, if I'm uncomfortable with my seat, I'm going to get up, and I'm going to adjust, more [INDISCERNIBLE 00:20:54] right, I'm going to get up, and get my water because that's me modeling taking care of me and showing up in that authentic way.

So, at my center, with my therapist, we wear shorts, we wear jeans, a bit of those sweatpants onesie. We don't wear shoes if we don't want to. Our clients can put their feet on the couch, we sit on the floor, the dogs come in because those are all things that help us regulate and show up as ourselves. And when you can be physically comfortable, you can also then go there emotionally.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. Yeah. How many times have those of you listening been a client yourself where you've been uncomfortable, where you're like, "Oh, I have to pee, but like I have to sit in this session for the next 40 minutes." You're no longer thinking about the session, you're thinking about, when is this going to be over? I had to do that on a podcast the other day, actually, because I was like, "Can I press pause on this?" Like I had drunk way too much water.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Yeah, I had totally done that in this session, too. And I'm like, "Sorry, I can't hear you if I just keep sitting here worrying about it."

PATRICK CASALE: Exactly. So, like you're modeling human behavior, right? And that's really, really important in getting your basic needs met. So, when clients come into sessions, and they're anxious about, like, "Can I eat in here? I haven't had time today. Like, I'm just rushing from one thing to the next." "Absolutely. Like, please do that." "Can I have a drink?" "Cool."

JAMIE ROBERTS: I've got a box of snacks in the corner.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly. Like, you cannot do deep healing work if your basic needs are not met, and you're constantly concerned or anxious about like, "How's my client going to receive this? What if I take a drink of water during my session?"

Like, I see that posted in some of these therapist's Facebook groups, "What do you all think about drinking water in sessions?" And I'm like, "What the fuck?" Like, why is it such a thing that we are uncertain about? Drink water y'all. Like, drink water, drink tea, drink whatever you want. Like, don't drink alcohol during sessions, but like drink whatever else you want. Like, why does that matter?

And I think that as a profession as and a whole, we put so much unnecessary pressure on ourselves to show up in a certain way. And we are getting those messages in grad school, we are getting those messages in community mental health centers. And I just want to tell all of you listening like it's bullshit. It's absolute shit. And the more you can show up as yourself, the better work you're going to do, the more energized, and excited you're going to be to look at your caseload every week and your bank account is also going to feel a lot better too.

JAMIE ROBERTS: So, my book came out a year ago. And in one of those giant Facebook groups, I posted an image of my book, and kind of described it. And it got attention, people noticed it, I was excited.

About a week later, I posted a picture of me holding my book and it blew up. And all the comments were making things like, "You look like the therapist my teen was asking for." That because I was showing up in this way that teens would receive information from me, all of a sudden my book had this more credibility, and it was catching this attention, versus it just being the book in and of itself. And that was just such an interesting like experiment for me to see how I presented or how I showed up as myself relayed my information differently, even though a lot in my book is basic, this is mindfulness basic, this is anxiety, but it was just packaged in a different way that was consumed by the ideal person I wanted to have it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I love that for you. I think that's amazing. And it's a good moment. You know, when we have these epiphany moments, I talk about this sometimes, like, when I'm doing content creation courses with therapists because a lot of your therapy content sucks, y'all. Like, I've done so many audits, I've done TikTok series called Your Psych Today Sucks, Here's How It Fix It because it all sounds the same, sounds like a walking DSM. Like the only people who are reading this are other therapists and nobody talks like this.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: But what I realized early on when I started my practice is like I tried to be very buttoned up and I did all the things that I encourage people not to do. And I think that's where a lot of life lessons come from. And I remember switching my Psych Today one time, like I was like, "I'm going to just post how I actually speak. I'm from New York, I curse a lot. Like, it's going into my profile."

And I'm trying to target young adult men, as you often are trying to target our niches, our versions of ourselves, in my opinion, I was trying to target young adult men who were struggling with addiction and recovery because I knew that life very well. And I remember changing something like an opening statement to be like, "Vulnerability is fucking scary and that's okay." And I was like, "'Oh, I can't publish that. That feels like the ethical police are going to come knocking at my door."

I published it. It was amazing, the response. Like and I'm talking like phone call and email, and phone call and email, after email, and phone call. And just like people who were my age, probably, like, at the time early 30s, late 20s, who were just like, "Finally, a therapist that I actually feel safe enough to talk to." Because it's just language. Language is so powerful. And if I can speak in that language and give you permission to do the same, we've already reduced that barrier to coming in for help because you're already saying, "Oh, I can come in and be myself. Like, I don't have to pretend to be someone else with you." And I think that is so freaking powerful.

And another example that is on our homepage of our group practice site, Resilient Mind Counseling, here in North Carolina, we use the word fuck, with a lot of freedom. We get so many calls from people or texts into our main line that are like, "Hey, I want to see you because of the way you said A, B, C, D, and E." And my marketing person at the time said, "Do not write this, you're going to turn off X amount of clients." I was like, "I don't care." Like, that is not our people. We want people to come in who are in alignment with how our values are set, how we approach therapy, how we're going to show up for them. We want them to feel as comfortable and safe as possible to pick up the phone because that's a process and it's kind of in and of itself, that's what I'm trying to say.

JAMIE ROBERTS: That's it.

PATRICK CASALE: And you know, if we can reduce barriers to mental health support, then we are helping destigmatize mental health care. And we are helping normalize the human experience, which is that we all struggle and suffer in some capacity.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Absolutely. So, I've talked publicly about my ADHD diagnosis for years, and just being able to talk about that people have come in and be like, "Oh, I don't have to explain it to you, you already get it." And very recently, I shared that I'm autistic as well. And we'll have another conversation about that journey, but just putting that out there and not having it be this, I have lived experience in the community, which everyone goes on their path about how much they reveal and that's cool. But for me, putting it out there kind of bridged that gap to where like, you don't have to explain yourself in… You don't have to teach me about your culture, or your community, or your [INDISCERNIBLE 00:27:50]. I get the basics, I want to know about you specifically, I've already got this piece.

And so being able to share those things about yourself kind of invites that in, invites those conversations in, and creates that community, right? And that's what we're really doing in a lot of our work is creating community. And we want to do that with people who get us and we get them, and that flow state can be reached super easy to get into the deeper work or to expand or to share the information at a broader scale.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I love the way you just framed that. And also, I commend you and applaud you for just being willing to share that on a podcast. And that's why I've always talked about my addiction. That's why I've always talked about my mental health. That's why I've always talked about my ADHD autistic experience because I think, again, like if you're coming into therapy with no knowledge of your therapist, or you're very buttoned up, or you're very anxious and overwhelmed, which is natural when you're coming to therapy, to feel anxious and overwhelmed about a new relationship, you have to trust this person, if you talk to this person, you have to share your deepest, darkest secrets with this person. Like, what the fuck is this?

And then if you know like your therapist is open and using some self-disclosure, well, when appropriate that 100-pound weight that you're bringing into the therapy office becomes like a 20-pound weight. Feels like it's less heaviness, it feels like I don't have to explain this to this person. Like you said, they already, foundationally, understand. We can get into the deeper stuff, the actual stuff about like, "Hey, this is what's going on for me right now." And we don't have to go into this detail about something that I feel you know uncomfortable talking about, or discriminated against for talking about, or made to feel different because of. And I think that offers a light at the end of the tunnel for your clientele who are like, "Nothing is ever going to get better."

And I can vividly remember standing on the soccer field in 2010, gambling addiction in full fucking force, no money, stealing money from people, living in all these different areas of just like, addiction, in general, being like, "I don't think life is ever going to change. Like, there is no answer for this. And I don't know how I'm going to get out of this. This feels like the pit of fucking despair." And that's where those really dark thoughts creep in where you're like, "Well, you know, there are options here." And I definitely considered a lot of them. But that's why I talk about it because it allows [CROSSTALK 00:30:30]-

JAMIE ROBERTS: I saw a quote that was, "I heal loudly so others don't struggle in silence." And that's what I'm hearing you saying right now, of let me put my healing journey out there so you know that you're not the only one finding your way through this.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. Exactly that. Yeah, exactly that, you know? And I think if we're able to speak up about these experiences it really does allow for community healing to take place. Not everyone's going to come to therapy but someone might follow your social media because of how you show up. And not everyone's going to come to therapy, but someone might buy Jamie's book, and it might help with their anxiety, it might help them learn some mindfulness skills in the meantime.

So, I really think we have to re-think our approach and how we show up in this profession because you never know who's paying attention, and taking notes, and using these things that you're offering the world. And you may never know them, you may never know their name. I may just be a fly on the wall but I think that's how you have impact that starts to ripple and starts to create an effect where more and more people feel comfortable talking about whatever it is that's going on in their lives because life is fucking hard.

So, I think that if you are able to unmask, if you are able to authentically show up, you are able to work through the impostor syndrome that comes up when you're thinking about these things, I think you're going to have a monumental impact for the good. And it's going to be life-changing for not only yourself, but for people around you.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Absolutely. And I want to add the one little extra caveat in there is that there is a safety component with masking, which is different than our traditional impostor syndrome, that with masking there are areas in which it does keep you safe and it is something we can't always unmask in every situation. And so really being able to gauge where you are and who you're around, and if that is a safe place to do it. And there's no shame if there are areas in which you have to maintain the mask. But absolutely finding a space in your life that it is safe to do that because taking that mask off is such a relief and such like a breathing space and knowing that both can exist.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I'm really bad at segues and transitions, but it feels like a good ending spot. So, in my other podcast, Megan Neff is always like, "Patrick, are you struggling with the transition to end?" I'm like, "Thank you for seeing that." Very autistic of me.

This was a good conversation. And I appreciate you having it. I think any of these conversations that y'all are listening to this is always the goal, is just to help normalize and to help humanize this process, especially, when you're on the other side of the couch, or on the other side of the telehealth screen, or you're just lurking in a Facebook group and feeling a certain way. You're not alone in this. And I want to just encourage all of you to just start taking these baby steps forward to embrace your authentic self. And no matter how minimal or insignificant it may seem, just that one action step today.

So, Jamie, thanks for coming on and sharing some of your story. And please just share with the audience where they can find more of you, and your book, and everything that you're doing.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Awesome. Thanks for having me. This was super fun. Again, I'm Jamie Roberts. My counseling center is Equilibrium Counseling Services in California. You can find me on social media at Neurodivergent Therapist on both Instagram and TikTok. And we have a YouTube channel, and my book is on the website. It's Mindfulness for Teen Anxiety. It's also on Amazon, Target, and Barnes and Noble. Yeah, that's where we're at.

PATRICK CASALE: And all of that information will be in the show notes so that you have easy access to all of Jamie's stuff and just give her a follow, check out her book, really cool stuff that she's got going on out in California. And appreciate you coming on.

JAMIE ROBERTS: Thank you so much.

PATRICK CASALE: To everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice Podcast, new episodes are out every single week on all major podcast platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. If you aren't following my other podcast because it's very tied into what we're talking about today, check out Divergent Conversations where I'm co-hosting with Dr. Megan Neff. We are both autistic ADHD adults, and mental health professionals, and business owners talking about life experience. And that's on all major platforms as well. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week.