Episode 113: I'd Rather Work At Rikers: The Journey Of The Bad Indian Therapist [featuring Tracy Vadakumchery]

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale. I'm joined today by Tracy Vadakumchery, a licensed mental health counselor in New York and the owner of The Bad Indian Therapist.

And today we're going to talk about impostor syndrome in South Asian people and clientele, especially, when we're opening up businesses because of the narratives and the experiences that people have had, and how it impacts you.

And I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. I follow your Instagram. You put out a lot of great content. And I'm really excited to have this conversation from this perspective, because we talk about impostor syndrome on here a lot. And we talk about impostor syndrome a lot on here with people of color, but mainly from the Black and African American perspective. And I'm really interested to have the South Asian perspective on here as well. And your own thoughts on what's happening behind the scenes, because you mentioned before we started recording a little bit about the narratives and the things that come up when you're starting to deal with impostor syndrome.

So, thank you so much for coming on and making the time. I know that we've worked really hard to get you on here, so…

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Yeah, absolutely. And I just want to add that I am a licensed therapist in New York, but I'm also licensed in California and Florida as well. By the way, I love your mug. Is that a Schitt's Creek mug?

PATRICK CASALE: It is a Schitt's… While I try to figure out where the camera is, [CROSSTALK 00:02:25]-

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: No, no, no, no, Moira Arose. I was so fuzzy with all her wig, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, my office is like special interest central which, and I'll be completely honest, I've actually never watched Schitt's Creek. It's my wife's mug. But in here you will find a lot of Ted Lasso, and New Girl, Anthony Bourdain, Lord of the Rings, and all sorts of other special interest stuff.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Love that. Love that.

PATRICK CASALE: So, tell us a little bit about this topic and why it feels important to talk about.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: I think it feels important to talk about, because I've learned through my work not just as a therapist, but also through my, like the process of becoming a therapist in private practice and a business owner that, like so much of what it takes to build and maintain a business means like having to challenge an inner narrative that I didn't realize was dormant, and was still there, of like what it means to not just be a therapist, but also what it means to be a South Asian American therapist, what it means to be a South Asian American woman. Like, I didn't realize this, but I had expectations in myself of what I'm allowed to do and what I'm not allowed to do, that were actually getting in the way of my growth in my career and in having a successful private practice.

I think that if the parallels were so meta, I learned a lot about myself in the process of having to go through this experience of jumping into private practice full time, then eventually going out of network with insurance, like what actually makes me a good therapist, and what doesn't. And what does it mean to be a helpful resource in my community without having to hurt myself in the process?

And I say that because a common self-defeating belief that I find a lot of my clients have and that I had is that in order to help somebody I have to sacrifice my own needs or I have to sacrifice my happiness. And yeah, you see that a lot in the South Asian diaspora. Like, to be helpful, to show that you care, you have to sacrifice, self-sacrifice. And is that true, right? Or is that coming from a scarcity mindset?

So, I think, to answer your question, that has been probably the most important lesson to me, in not just the work of becoming a therapist, but also the work of, like, doing private practice full time.

PATRICK CASALE: That's a great response. And can you share a little bit about some of the narratives going into private practice? And then we'll kind of jump into like becoming a private pay therapist, because they both exist, and they're a little bit different, right?

So, what was going through your head when you decided, "Hey, I'm going to start my private practice." Like, what's coming up for you and tell us a little bit like set the scene. Like, were are you working at the time? Or did you go straight out of grad school into private practice?

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: I did not go straight into private practice after grad school, which I actually love, because I think it gave me some perspective. And I was able to, like, give back to the local community in some way, right? And for the longest time, I was like, "I absolutely will never do private practice, I will not do private practice. That is not my thing." And let me tell you why. It's because when I graduated from Teachers College up at Columbia, I was very much like, "Okay, I have to prove to my parents that this career was worth it. It was worth the expense. So, I just need to find a job."

And I didn't even really know what to look for. My assumption was, "Okay, you know, it's 2017, mental health is still not as popular as it is now. Like, I just need to know that there's some job security out there, and that I can find a job with my degree." Because at the end of the day, regardless of where I was working, I went to Columbia. So, I knew that was going to get my foot through the door.

And I ended up getting a job at a nonprofit called The New York Foundling that provided home-based family therapy for families in Manhattan and Queens. And that was really like my first real introduction into what I call therapist's boot camp. And it made me realize that grad school did not prepare me for everything. Like, you are not just in session with people. You are also planning outside of that. And also doing case management, especially, in a nonprofit setting, you're doing crisis intervention, especially, in the nonprofit setting. Like, it was so impossible to be on top of notes, be on top of organization, time management.

Like, I had a panic attack, like five months into the job. Like, legitimate, like quarter-life crisis. Like, I did not know what I was doing. But at some point, I think my mind and my body adjusted, and I was like, "Oh, this is what therapy actually is." Like, I thought that being a therapist meant sitting in a nice office and asking about your feelings. And actually, that's not always the case. Sometimes it looks like this. Sometimes it looks like going to a family's house in under like, served area, and like having to get the family to focus on the main issue while there's so much going around, right? And that in itself is very challenging.

At some point, I was like, you know, maybe I want something that was a little bit more, like, I should say, less chaotic. And I ended up having an eight-month stint at a group practice. And I'm out here thinking like, "Oh, because I won't be traveling to people's homes I can see more clients. And if I just do the math, you know, I'll be paid $30 a session." Again, having to-

PATRICK CASALE: Wait, what?

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Yeah, it was [INDISCERNIBLE 00:09:44]. No, no, no. I did not know that was actually really low. I thought that was high because I did not know that it was $30 per client hour, not $30 per hour. And again, this was also young Tracy learning her ways of the road in the profession, that actually therapists do not see more than four to five clients a day unless they absolutely have to. Yeah, and I had to learn the hard way that no, you're not actually supposed to see a client every hour.

So, I was extremely burnt out, probably about six months in the director of the group practice did not advocate for me. So, like, literally, I think, like the first month I made $900. And, by the way, no health insurance, no benefits, no nothing. And I think my rent at the time was 1400 a month.

PATRICK CASALE: It hurts my soul listening to this as a group practice owner who does not do this stuff to their employees.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Yes. I mean, like, it's insane, because I think that like, especially, for a lot of new therapists, or like people who are new to the field, they think that's a lot of money. But then you realize, like, oh, like, you're not supposed to see a client every hour. On top of that, sometimes life happens, clients cancel, clients have to reschedule. So, your income, your revenue varies from week to week.

And then at some point, I think I was seeing, like, 40 clients a week, 50 clients a week. And I was like, "Oh, I can't do this." Like, I don't have a life outside of my job. Like, I can't sleep, I can't take care of myself. And then after that, I was like, "Screw private practice, if this is what private practice is, I don't want it."

And then I got a job at Rikers Island. I was like, okay, I'm back to the not for profit work, but at least I have a stable salary, at least I have benefits. And I probably won't have to be as burned out as I was.

And at that point, I was like, "I'm never ever, ever doing private practice ever again." Like, that was horrible. If that's what private practice is, I don't want it. But I didn't know that I just had a really shitty group practice owner who didn't advocate for me.

PATRICK CASALE: I got to jump in on this. So, I just want to highlight for everyone listening, yeah, Tracy you went from group practice, quitting group practice, because the shitty group practice owner, you were underpaid, undervalued, way too overworked to working at a prison system.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I just want everyone to hear that. Okay, continue on.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Because my logic was like, I also had a friend at the time who had worked with me at the previous nonprofit that I was at, and she said something. She's like, "I love feeling needed. I love emergency work." And I was like, "Okay, I can deal with a crisis if it means that my needs are met." So, I mean, logically [CROSSTALK 00:12:50]-

PATRICK CASALE: That makes sense.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Yeah. Like, that makes sense. So, I was like, okay, working in Rikers Island, in a jail setting, I'm going to get guys who are, like, saying if they're going to die by suicide, they might "Hang up." I can deal with that if I know that, okay, I'm going to have a union job, I'm going to have my health insurance paid for, I'll get paid time off, all that stuff.

And it's sad that had to be like the resort, right? Like, to your point, like, that group practice was so bad that I went to jail. Like, that's literally how the options are for a lot of therapists who are starting out in their career, especially, when you need your hours up. Like, those clinical hours are goal, that's what helps you get your license, and I was very focused on, "I need my license." And-

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, which is unfortunate, because I think that's why a lot of group practices operate that way, because they know that the clinician needs the hour. So, it's almost like predatory in a way, because $30 an hour in this field is like criminal. And you're not the first person to come on here and have a story like this. And I've experienced things like this too. But it's absolutely ridiculous that that's where a lot of our field is at.

So, okay, anyway, diverging back. So, you're in Rikers working there, you have consistency, you have security, you know when you're going to get paid, and what you're going to get paid, you can pay your bills, which is certainly helpful to do crisis work, because it's really hard to do crisis work when you're also in crisis. So, from there, where do we go?

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: I think that I learned so much from being at Rikers. I think that it gave me a lot of perspective. But I think there were just so many factors that were also outside of everyone's control at that time.

I had started working at Rikers in September 2019. And I got my license, finally. I got my license February 26th, 2020. And this was great for me because this meant that okay, my job at Rikers was going to pay me more. I finally qualify for the Union. I can get paid time off. And then boom, COVID happens. And the incarcerated is protected in terms of the, like vulnerability, right? They have to be protected from the vulnerability of COVID-19. So, there was a lot at risk, a lot of stake, nobody knew what was going on.

And I think that, because of COVID-19, because of the pandemic, there were just so many administrative things that went on that it started affecting my mental health, and my ability to feel supported at my work.

And then a couple of things happened. I had been approached by another group practice at that time, that was going to help me kind of build a caseload part-time, and introduced the idea of private practice to me, and I was like, "I don't know. Like, maybe." Especially because I'm working nights at Rikers, and like, I would have to work day hours, so I'm not so sure.

And then I think I was also at that time, I kept getting emails from Alma, which is another therapy site that was offering to also kind of help me build a caseload as well. And it's kind of like, when you're starving, when you're hungry anything looks like a meal, right? Especially, if you didn't realize it was a possibility before and then when I realized that, like, I could actually get paid more to do what I'm doing without having to put myself in a dangerous situation every day, like I can actually be financially stable and have my needs met without putting myself in dangerous environments every day. Then what am I doing here? Like, why am I here? Like, you know what I mean? Like, don't get me wrong, my time at Rikers was lovely. But like, I don't want to do this forever. Like, I have a life outside my job, but if I know that I could get paid more to be seeing sessions from home, then why would I be here? And I think that's what kind of kick started for me that like maybe I could do this full time.

PATRICK CASALE: That's a pretty cool, I don't know if I want to say it's a pretty cool origin story, because I know there's a lot of, like, shitty moments in there and a lot of struggle. But it's an interesting one. So, once you go into private practice, and we're talking about your own narratives that are coming up, and then your own impostor syndrome, what starts surfacing for you when you go out on your own, and you say, finally, like, I'm going to put my notice in at Rikers, and I'm going to do the thing.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: I think uncertainty, for sure, uncertainty. And this is a reality for a lot of therapists, I think is that, like, they do private practice part-time. And there was a period where I'm like, "Okay, you know, I can do this, but I also just want to have something stable on the side." So, I did take up a part-time job while I was kind of starting out private practice, because I was like, "You never know what can happen." You know, I was traumatized from group practice. So, I'm like, "I don't want to have a repeat of those eight months in group practice, so let me just get like a stable job on the side."

So, I think like, there was definitely that issue of like certainty. Like, "Is this going to fall out from underneath me? Am I being smart about this?" Especially, because like, I didn't really know anyone at the time who was doing that. A lot of the therapist friends that I made were working in a nonprofit setting or were working for another group practice. So, like, I hadn't really seen like someone yet kind of like go out and do their own thing. So, I had a lot of doubts.

And I will say that there was also other, like self-defeating beliefs, such as, like, female therapists who make it in private practice do it because they're married. Like, they have the financial support of somebody else, so that's why I need a part-time job, because I'm not married. I don't have a partner, you know?

And I think that there was a couple of other self-defeating beliefs. I'm trying to remember what they were. But it was like, you… I can't remember if it was about like, I think it may have been about money, for sure. Like, there's only so much money that you can make. Or like you got, I can't even remember. But like, I just know that there was a lot of self-defeating beliefs around this could fail.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that I see that so often is, you know, from therapists who are like, "I'm leaving this secure, consistent income, I don't love it. It doesn't fill me with joy. I want to try this thing. But I'm so scared to do so because it's not guaranteed. And it is a risk." So, I think we should be insecure and anxious about the outcome. And then we create these narratives like the phone's never going to ring, nobody's ever going to pay me, nobody makes money in this business, there's not enough clients to go around for everybody, all of the things that start surfacing when you start kind of stepping out of your comfort zone into that entrepreneurial mindset.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: And I will say, I think that, like, it's easy for me to sit here and say that's not true, because I'm licensed in some of the most populated states where like, people tend to be a little bit more open-minded about therapy. Also, I'm licensed in states where my ideal client exists. You know, there's a lot of diversity, there's a lot of South Asian Americans that live in New York, Florida, and California. So, it's very easy for me to kind of like say, like, you know, those things aren't true, but a lot for a lot of therapists and like other states that aren't so populated, that might actually be a reality. Yeah, but I think that like, sometimes what's true for somebody else might not be true for me. And I think that was something that I really had to learn. Like, okay, maybe that's true, but it's not true for me, was like mind-blowing.

PATRICK CASALE: That's such a great point that I think that we often overlook. Like, so, that's a really good point. And it sounds like that probably was a factor when you moved into a private payroll to think about it in on both sides of the coin with that statement of like, maybe, okay, it is true for some people that it's really hard to attract lots of clients or clients that are ideal, but for me, it's not for these reasons. Like, if we look at it in that way or the opposite.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Yeah, right. I think that, you know, that thought too, that like just because it's true for somebody else, doesn't mean it has to be true for me, showed up a lot in my work with clients who come from small knit community-oriented cultures, where like, there is a herd mentality, everyone is supposed to do the same thing, everyone is supposed to follow life the same way, there are traditions and values you're supposed to uphold. And when you're in these small-knit communities, it's very easy to compare yourself and say, "Well, it worked for her, so I should do what she's doing, because that's going to work for me." Or, "Oh, well, it didn't work out for him so why do I think it would work for me?"

You know, like, it's hard to kind of separate that like, okay, that may have worked out for them, that may have been good for them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the same is true for you. I feel like being a business owner and having to challenge my own negative self-defeating beliefs, I learned so much from that, that I was able to teach my clients too. I thought that was so valuable.

PATRICK CASALE: That's really unbelievably valuable. And it sounds like there were a lot of good lessons along the way in the last couple of years, because it sounds like it's only been about two and a half years right now of being in private practice.

So, what about money stuff? Like, culturally what was coming up? What was coming up around when you transitioned to private pay? What kind of stuff was coming up for you?

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Oh, yeah, I think that definitely, like no one's going to pay for this was a big one. I think that, like, sometimes when we have conversations about race and racial justice, like there is a correlation between race and class. So, then I think that a lot of, like, therapists of color in the fields, I think we very much think like, "Oh, like in order to be like racially just, I have to lower my fee, because no one in my community is going to pay that much for therapy."

And also, taking into account, like, mental health stigma as well, right? Like, we're talking about communities that have a lot of stigma, because of past experiences, you know, past trauma that a lot of these communities have experienced historically. They have a lot of mistrust of health care providers, of course. I think that like, sometimes these self-defeating beliefs we have as therapists of like, no one's going to pay for this, like I have to be just, and lower my fee, it comes from very real fears, and very good reasons, right? Like, the reason why these self-defeating beliefs are so hard to challenge is because they come from truth, somewhere, right? There is supporting evidence to suggest that these self-defeating beliefs are true.

So, I was very much like, "Oh, well, no one's going to pay for this, so I can't charge too much if I want to claim that I am a resource to my community." And I think that like, I had to pause and really think about what that actually means, because I'm actually making a lot of racist assumptions when I do that. One, is that I'm assuming that by serving other South Asian Americans, that they, one, don't value therapy, aren't willing to pay for it. And that two, that they can't afford it. Like, I'm assuming that their core or that they can't afford a service that they might want, right?

And I had to pause and realize that like, while there's correlations between race and class, that does not mean that they're necessarily the same thing. And I think, also, like, we all kind of need to take a step back, and really think about what people actually spend their money on. And I think that here was also an assumption that I had that like, if I raise my fee, then I'm only going to get like wealthy clients. Which, surprisingly, was not true. I had clients who were like, teachers, social workers, actresses. And I was thinking like, "Oh, my God, like, they're willing to pay my fee." And I was so shocked. And I realized that people prioritize what they value. And that people will pay for what they value too, right? Like, there are people who oftentimes will pay for things that you would think are outside of their means, outside of their budget.

But what they're willing to spend on is none of my business and why I charge what I charge is no one else's business either. Like, I agree that we have a really fucked up healthcare system. And I had to realize that all of those things can be true, right? Like, we need a better health care system, we need equitable health care, we need all these things.

And also, it's not my job to fix a broken healthcare system. It's my job to be a good therapist. And in order for me to be a good therapist, I have to be able to practice what I preach to my clients. And if I'm not able to sustain my practice, my practice expenses, and take care of myself, then I'm only repeating the same harmful behavior patterns that my clients are doing, and then what can I really teach them?

So, I think it was a come to Jesus moment that like, maybe sometimes it's okay to do the thing that people would disapprove of, right? Like, sometimes you kind of have to be the bad guy, if it allows you to be a good person for other people, right? Like, there are people who are going to have so many opinions about why I charge what I charge and that's okay. But like, I know that this is what I need to be a good therapist.

PATRICK CASALE: You just said so many great, great things, and so many just really wonderful in, like, depth-oriented conversation to start thinking about because you're right, I mean, starting with what you just said immediately, like people can say whatever they want about what you charge, I don't know what you charge. I mean, I can easily look it up. And you can share it on here if you'd like. But at the end of the day, they don't pay your bills, and they don't know what you're dealing with, personally, or what you have to take care of personally. They don't talk about your student loan debt that you may have accrued, or the cost of living of where you live, or the ability to just take care of yourself so you can show up for other people. And I think as therapists we really like to get in that mindset of like, we're supposed to be in this job that just give ourselves away.

And I think that is very culturally embedded and rooted in the profession. But when you start challenging those narratives, that's where these questions and this introspection comes up of like, but wait, does it have to be that way? And like, am I just doing something and perpetuating something that is cyclical.

Like, yeah, the medical system fucking sucks. And we live in a fucking terrible capitalist society. But that also means like, I can't get stuck there in that mentality of like, let's just burn it all down all the time, because I have to pay my bills. So, like, all things have to be true to some degree, right? Like, we have to be okay with like, getting behind making money to take care of ourselves, because then we can take care of other people, then we can open up a pro bono slot or two, then you can donate more money to causes and charities that you really care about. But you can't do that, if you can't keep your own lights on too.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: And then you can advocate for the communities you serve in other ways, right? Like, I realized that, like, I'm not going to be able to help every South Asian American client out there, either because they can't afford my fee, or they don't live in a state that I'm licensed in, or they live in another country. But I am able to provide free resources or low-cost resources if I need to for people who can't access me.

Like, one of the things that I'm actually working on is a free course on toxic guilds that I'll be offering shortly. It's something that I plan to add to my link in bio, but like, I wouldn't be able to offer this free resource if I wasn't able to pay my bills and take care of all of my other practice expenses, right? Like, this is what I need in order to give back.

And it's funny, because that has also come up in my work, right? So many of my clients are afraid to set boundaries, or do the thing that scares them, even if they know it's what would be good for them, because they are afraid of being seen as the bad guy, they're afraid of being a bad daughter, they're afraid of being a bad son. And we often have to come to the moment that like sometimes you have to be the bad guy in order to be the good person for the people you care about. Like, you have to prioritize, you can't be good to everyone, you know?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I couldn't say that better myself. I agree 100%. And I think it's challenging. You know, in this profession, especially, and then if we start, like you mentioned, like if we start looking at the profession, and then we start also thinking about it from a place of identity, and multiply marginalized identities and communities, we have to, like, you have to start conceptualizing it in that way that you literally just described. And I think it's really crucial, because it's admirable to give back all the time, but it's not realistic. And it's not realistic if you want to take care of yourself. And it sounds like you're you've taken this approach of like, these are the things that I'm modeling. And it's also helpful for your clients to have these things modelled as well.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: I think there's a lot that we can learn from, like therapists who are actively challenging themselves in that way. Like, if a therapist can do it, then I can do it, right? Like, she's showing me what it's like to do the scary thing and be vulnerable about it, and why can't I?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: And I just want to briefly like go back to like having to, like negotiate in my mind that like this is okay for me to do. I had to, like, really stop myself and be like, "Tracy, you're not Elon Musk. You're not Jeff Bezos. Okay, you're not part of the 1%, you're not like a CEO of like, whatever health insurance company, you're not making millions of dollars a year. You're a small business owner. Like small businesses have financial challenges, and you are just responding to those financial challenges."

And yeah, like, I had to remind myself, like, I'm not being selfish or crazy.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. And I love that like reframe. And I know that that's the logical reframe, right? Because it's like, logically, yeah, of course I'm not a part of the 1%. I'm a small business owner. And I still know that guilt, and shame, and some doubt creeps up emotionally because it's like, but I'm a helper, right? Like, I'm a helper and those are the two things that we juggle constantly as small business owners. But I love the way you just described that, because I think that's so true. Like, I'm not participating in the destruction of society, because I don't own Amazon. I'm not trying to like send people to fucking Mars. Like, I'm literally just out here helping people and that's all I can do.

And I also liked that you touched on the fact that you can help people in different ways, who don't necessarily have either financial access ability or geographical access ability. Because you have a social media presence, I have a social media presence, we all can have social media presences. That's free information, that's free content, those are free resources. Like, sometimes podcast episodes, workbooks, social media content, that blog content, this stuff goes a long way. And it can really have that ripple effect when people don't have access to come and sit for 60 minutes of a time.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Absolutely, yeah, I think that, you know, this is something that came up for me growing up is that like, if I really want to show that I help or care, like if I really want to show my mom, or my dad, or like people in my family that I really care about them, that means that I would not only go out of my way, but I would drop what I'm doing, and that I would give up something to show them their love. And I'm like, why is that a requirement? Like why can't we have both, like, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:38:45]. You know, like, why does it mean that? Like, you can still show up for people and not hurt yourself in the process. And yeah, that's like black and white, all-or-nothing thinking that we're constantly challenging in therapy.

PATRICK CASALE: I could not have said that better myself. So, let me ask you, you know, I know we're getting closer to wrapping up, but you moved to private pay. It sounds like your business is doing quite well, in terms of attracting clients, getting calls, getting inquiries, I just want to highlight that for the people who are listening saying like, "I don't know if that's possible." And I want to just highlight the both and because you did highlight that too. Like, it may not be possible, but in this instance, it has been.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: It has been and I will say that creeping thought still comes up. I'm like, "What if this was like, just like a one-hit wonder?" What if this was just like a phase, a one thing, and then suddenly it drops? And I'm always like, I think this also speaks to how social media can be unhealthy sometimes, because I'm like, "Okay, well, technology's always developing, and what if like, Instagram is not the thing anymore? And what if Instagram becomes Facebook? And then like, what am I going to do next?" You know?

But I think that everything has worked out well, so far. Any challenges that I had, I was able to get past them. I can continue to get past them. Like, it's worked out so far, who's to say that I can't work out in the future? And I think that's huge.

PATRICK CASALE: That's honestly some of the most important advice that I give people when they ask about impostor syndrome, self-doubt, stuff like that. Is like, look at the evidence, right? Like, it's worked out so far.

And yeah, the doubt can creep up the impostor syndrome can come back, the insecurity, the perfectionism can all surface again, but you're doing the thing.

And I heard you say something that I want to circle back to from the beginning of the episode, which was like, you started at your community mental health job or your nonprofit, I think. You were having similar thoughts, like, you were overwhelmed, and you were like, "I don't know what the hell I'm doing." Then five months in, you're like, "This is easy. I just am burnt the fuck out?"

And that's something that we need to remember even in private practice. Like, when you implement something new, or if you're creating a course, or you're creating a podcast, or whatever, you're going to have insecurity, you're going to experience self-doubt. I want you all to think about, like the times where you've done it anyway. And just look at the examples like Tracy's saying. Like, I've done it so far. What evidence do I have that it's all just going to be taken away tomorrow? And I think that's really important, because I also think like, this is a both and situation where a little bit of insecurity, anxiety, self-doubt is good. Like, it's good. It's natural. You just don't want it to dictate how you make decisions and paralyze you from moving forward when you have aspirations and goals to pursue.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: And I would argue, it's what makes you a good therapist, right?

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Like, that's how is you also, like, not being a narcissist and like, going into things blindly and taking ridiculous risks, right? Like, shows that you're conscious and aware of reality.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I agree, 100%. I really enjoyed this conversation and your story, and your perspective, and I'm just going to continuously think about how you quit a group practice to go work at a prison. I'm very thankful that we do not recruit practice in that way down here. But yeah, that's going to stick in my mind, for sure.

Any other last-second tips, advice, anything you want to leave the audience with. And also, please share where they can find more of what you're offering.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: You can find more about what I'm offering at thebadindiantherapist.com. I'll be accepting new clients soon. So, if you reside in New York, California, or Florida, I'll be accepting new clients this month in September.

I am also coming out with a free course on toxic guilt, that's still TBD, still filming a lot of the content for it. So, stay tuned.

And I will say that, like, just one last tidbit is that like, you are not responsible for other people's hardships, but you are responsible for advocating for your community. So, like, maybe it's not in the form of self-sacrificing your needs, and what you need to be a good therapist. But this is an opportunity to get creative. It's 2023, the field of therapy is changing. Like, there are so many other things that you can be offering to the communities you serve, that don't necessarily have to be within the confines of a therapy office. You got to do what's best for you.

PATRICK CASALE: I love it. That's the perfect ending point. Thank you so much for coming on, and making the time, and sharing all of that great wisdom and great advice. So, really, really appreciate you.

TRACY VADAKUMCHERY: Thank you so much, Patrick, and All Things Private Practice.

PATRICK CASALE: To everyone listening to All Things Private Practice, new episodes are out every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. We will have all of Tracy's information in the show notes so that you have easy access to everything that they've listed, all of their social media handles, website if you are in New York, Florida, or California. And doubt yourself, do it anyway. We'll see you next week.