Episode 12: Why would anyone hire me? Taking The Leap Through Impostor Syndrome [featuring Christal Pennic]

Show Notes

"Why would anyone hire me? How is it even possible to leave community mental health and start a private practice?"

Have you had similar thoughts and let them prevent you from starting your own business?

You're definitely not alone.

Leaving security, consistency, and stepping into the unknown can be really scary when starting a private practice.

In this episode, Christal Pennic (the host of the #GetNeckID Podcast and my good friend) and I talk about how she's prevented herself from taking the leap for far too long—all because of IMPOSTOR SYNDROME! Christal shares her journey from community mental health into her private practice.

We talk about impostor syndrome, techniques to manage it, and how to pursue your goals and dreams even when it feels scary and impossible, as well as Christal's experiences with being a  BIPOC therapist and how that impacted her impostor syndrome and decision to take the leap into private practice.

More about Christal Pennic, LPC, MHSP:

Christal Pennic (or “LPC Chris” in the podcast world) is a licensed professional counselor in Nashville, TN. Currently, she counsels youth victims of crime for the city of Nashville. LPC Chris has a passion for youth and adults that are on the journey of grief and loss. She has worked in the helping profession since 2005 and is the owner of two podcasts. One of her podcasts is #GetNeckIDTherapist, which is primarily geared for mental health professionals, fans, advocates, and coaches. It is the 100% neckid truth of the good, bad, and ugly of the field we helping professionals love so much. It might have a funny name, but the meaning becomes clear after you tune in for an episode. Her other podcast, "Surviving Sibling Loss - The Forgotten Mourners Podcast" is a special listening space for siblings who are grieving the death of their sibling(s). Both podcasts, and the interactions received since launching them, have fueled her desire in becoming a private practice practitioner. Stay tuned.

Side note from Christal: "I am a loud laugher… and I test as an extrovert on western personality tests, but on eastern personality tests, I am an introvert. I agree with both :-)"

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Transcript

Season 2, Episode 2 - Why Would Anyone Hire Me? Taking The Leap Through Imposter Syndrome (With Christal Pennic.)

PATRICK CASALE: Hey everyone, I am Patrick Casale here with the All Things Private Practice Podcast, where we talk about all things private practice, including, small business journeys, failures, struggles, fears, insecurities, and imposter syndrome, which is what we're going to be talking about today. And if you've heard me before speak about this, there's a lot of hot takes on this topic, a lot of people who struggle with this insecurity, this fear, and this anxiety that comes up that tells us we're not good enough. I'm here joined with a really good friend and colleague of mine, Christal Penicc. She is an LPC/MH SP, wouldn't it be fucking nice if everyone had the same letters behind their names-

CHRISTAL PENICC: Yes it would.

PATRICK CASALE:  …in Nashville, Tennessee? I just want to say hi, and thank you, and just please feel free to introduce yourself.

CHRISTAL PENICC: Well, hey, Patrick, it’s good to talk to you, again. I always like to talk to you and see your face. Yes, it would be so nice if we were all just LPC throughout the country. But we have extra stuff here in Nashville, Tennessee. Yeah, that just means that I can diagnose and I can see somebody with serious mental health illnesses, so that's what MH SP basically is. Yeah, I am, again, Christal Penicc. Or as you guys might know, if you listen to  #getnakedtherapist, I am the creator and host of that podcast. Basically, I've been in social services for over 16 years and clinically based. Well, I've had my license for about a year and a half. I'm still very new with licensure, and we've talked before about going into private practice. And so, we'll talk a lot about that later on in this podcast. I'm so excited to be here to record with you today.

PATRICK CASALE:  Thank you, and I've been on your podcast. It's been nice to kind of share back and forth and exchange the favor. I really want to talk about your journey right now like we've been doing in this series, talking about small business startup journey, and the fears that come with it, because I want to really try to normalize the fact that fear exists, and that this stuff is not easy. It's rewarding, but it's not easy. And it emotionally and psychologically is really challenging sometimes. You took my private practice startup course. 

CHRISTAL PENICC: I did.

PATRICK CASALE:  And through that, I got to know you and learn more about you. What I started to see come up was this lack of belief or confidence that you could be successful in private practice. I think that seems like that's held you back from taking the leap out of your job. I just want you to tell us about your story. I'm calling you out on this, because like you-

CHRISTAL PENICC: Yes, you are.

PATRICK CASALE: …this is accountability right here.

CHRISTAL PENICC: Yes, it is.

PATRICK CASALE:  Like, let's get this going, get out of your job, and start your own thing. Tell us about what's coming up with your desire to take the leap, and why that hasn't happened yet?

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Yeah, yeah. Just to be completely honest, this is going to help somebody out there one day. When we first talked about private practice, I was not convinced that that was the path for me. I went through your courses, and I was listening to everyone talk about money, which is a concern. We talked about just how much of a faith, confidence thing private practice really is, and being confident in what your skills and talents would be. And then kind of comparing yourself to other people out there that provide a service, and you're like, “Oh, well, I'm not specialized in that yet. I'm not this. I'm not that.” And then, of course, there is a comfortability of what I do right now. There's a set of comfortable with that because I work for the city. This was my dream job a few years ago, and I always wanted to work for the city. I ended up getting a job there and doing what I loved at the time. But fast forward to 2021, I started to have like a series of dreams and not only have a series of dreams about talking to people and being autonomous, but I also had people referring clients to me and saying, “Hey, are you in private practice? Are you this? Are you there?” And I'm like, “Oh, no.” But people are-

PATRICK CASALE:  So people are referring to you when you don't even have a practice open?

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Nothing, nothing open, not even a hint of anything. By then I've already taken your course, and I'm like, “Oh, shoot.” I'm like starting to sweat, and then I'm realizing I’m leaving money on the table, I'm leaving things out there and referring over to good friends that I trust. Later on, I start to become disenfranchised by a lot of things that I'm seeing. I feel like, “I'm putting myself in the box, my job, and okay, so if I have this talent, if I have this skill, I'm not using it. Where's it going to go?” My thought was, “You know what? These dreams are messing with you, one, and your talents are going to waste, two, and you don't like being put in a box, so nobody puts baby in the corner.” Yeah, so I started the process of doing the private practice. I've already got the LLC, and looking into insurances, already got on ProView, and all that stuff, so I’m just a few more steps to be able to get started. I'm doing part-time right now. But who's to say I'm not planning an exit plan?

PATRICK CASALE:  Sounds like you started planning an exit plan maybe not too long ago and started putting the wheels in motion. 

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Yeah, you're right. You're so right, yeah. So there's still fear there, some type of fear, but not as much as it was last year this time. It's like, just move forward, make progress. You know what you can do and you can always have help with the people that you have contacted with, and networked with. Yeah, I have Patrick.

PATRICK CASALE:  One thing that's really interesting to me is, you and I talked about this before, like perfecting the process, right? And how imposter syndrome shows up when you're in perfectionism mode and not willing or ready to launch, because it's not perfect. Is that what's happening for you with like-

CHRISTAL PENICC:  That happened.

PATRICK CASALE:  …I've got to get some pieces in place, I've got to get more pieces in place.

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Oh, definitely. Yeah, let me take this certification, let me take that certification. Of course, you need to know more. You always learn, you always grow, and things like that. But that does not mean that it should stagnate your process to getting to where you want to be. And that's where it was. It was like, “Oh, I got to do this, I got to do…” And I was just kind of like, overwhelming myself by all the things I felt like I had to do in order to be ready. Yes, that was my trauma right there.

PATRICK CASALE:  And that can never be enough, right? We can never be, “Completely prepared and ready.” for what this is going to look like when you step away from secure consistent sources of income and employment. And it's really fucking scary to think about the unknown, and I don't know how to run a business, and will people call me, and am I competent enough as a clinician, and all the things that start going through our heads. Tell us about how imposter syndrome is showing up for you. Because you have a wonderful personality, you're obviously very good at connecting with people, and I just want to know what is standing in your way at this point in time.

CHRISTAL PENICC:  When you work in community mental health, you are told sometimes that you're not good enough, or there's an energy around you that you're not good enough, because this doesn't look the way I want it to look, or the company wants this to look this way. So then you have some type of trauma. I know with charts. I had trauma with charts. Someone would say, “Hey, let me see your chart.” And I'm like, frustrated and frazzled because of the job I had 10 years ago, and that's 10 years ago of trauma. It started around that, and just being put in a box, like you only do this, this is the only thing we do. We do CBT, that's it. We don't deal with emotions, we don't deal with all these other things. And that's where it just kind of ate at me. I didn't know it until there's a situation that happened at work, and I started to have colleagues or employees come to see me. And when they started to come see me, I started thinking like, “Oh my gosh, like, again, can I handle this?”

And then I thought about your voice like, “Oh, oh, hold on. They coming for a reason. Yes, they're coming to you for a reason.” And then what settled that outside of hearing your voice and putting a name to it, because I would not have known what it was until after I talked to you. You educated me about what imposter syndrome was. After I had named it, and recognized it, and heard your voice, I had a conversation with my client, and I said, “Hey, you know, just in case, you know, I'm just letting you know if I'm wrong about something, please let me know what that is.” And they immediately told me that they felt comfortable, and they don't feel comfortable with a lot of people. They were glad that they were referred by someone else. And people have been rejecting this person for years to be able to sit in the actual counselor's office. So he had been calling, and calling, and nobody has been returning calls, and all of that stuff. And he was like, “If you decide you want to go anywhere, I'll follow you wherever you go.” That was like within the first 30 minutes. I wasn't done with intake yet. 

PATRICK CASALE:  What happened though, as soon as that person tells you, “I will go wherever you want to go.” What comes up for you?

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Oh my gosh, it felt so validating as far as combating the imposter syndrome and then saying, “Okay, you can do this.” You know? And then after I had that thought, and we began to talk, and he said what you said, I was like, “Calm down, Christal, calm down and do what you do best.” Yes, it really helped me, it calmed me down, and even in our relationship, it's not like he can pick up any of that, because he felt comfortable immediately. But then it just gave me that confidence to say, “You're not incompetent. If you need help, of course, ask somebody supervising or [INDISCERNIBLE 00:10:04] it. But you are not incompetent.” So, that helped.

PATRICK CASALE:  Wow, so a combination of recognizing what was coming up for you. It sounds like you're doing therapy and thinking to yourself, “Oh my God, the person sitting across from me needs to find a therapist, because I don't know what I'm doing here.”

CHRISTAL PENICC:   Yes.

PATRICK CASALE:  Which is so common. I was just talking to Jeff Gunther from therapy done the other day about this exact same experience of like, “Oh, shit, this person needs a therapist.” And then you're like, “Oh, wait, I'm the therapist.” And then just calming that voice down. Did you give that voice a name? Like, did you make it have a funny voice? Like, how was that for you to be able to be like, “Okay, this is what's happening? I'm going to make sure it's muted, or at least less loud.” 

CHRISTAL PENICC:   I don't think we talked about this before. I think it was just your voice.

PATRICK CASALE:   Oh, no. I don't how to take that.

CHRISTAL PENICC:   It was so [CROSSTALK 00:10:53].

PATRICK CASALE:   Is that good or bad? 

CHRISTAL PENICC:   No, you combatted it. So it was actually my voice that I heard that was imposter syndrome, then to hear your voice, and then to hear my voice again change its mind, so it was just a battle with myself.

PATRICK CASALE:   Yeah, yeah, and that's what this is. It's a battle internally with ourselves asking am I competent enough or qualified enough, right? I heard you say, “Do I take more trainings? Like, do I get more letters behind my name? Like, I'm just newly licensed? So do I really have that much to bring to the table in terms of really having the ability to help someone?” This is really common. And I'm glad you're working through this because you're going to help so many people in the Nashville and Tennessee communities, and we hold ourselves back so often, we really, really do. And it is really paralyzing, and it's really fucking painful. The last time we met, you and I were talking about BIPOC experience and being a BIPOC therapist, and I started talking about colonialism and societal messaging in terms of imposter syndrome of like, if generationally populations of people, especially, people of color are told you're not good enough, you're not qualified enough, we just let you be here.  Of course, I imagine that questioning competency and qualification would come up in the professional world all the time. 

CHRISTAL PENICC:   Yes, and working in non-profit world, it's very hard work for anybody to work in non-profit world. But being a person of color, I've not had the best experiences with trying to work in the field and be respected for the talents that I bring in. It has been very frustrating. For somebody like me, you can see who I am, and we've had a lot of different conversations, but to be labeled as like a mad black woman, because you have tried to express yourself where you saw something that was happening that wasn't right,  accusations, or things look like this, or they're not setting you up correctly, like office supplies, just all these type of micro-aggressions that could happen on the job. When I was younger, I did not really see it as much. But the older I got, and the more professional I became, I realized it and definitely in non-profit.

PATRICK CASALE:   Yeah, that's got to be so painful to start to realize it and see it, and the mad black woman expression really stands out to me, because my wife has mentioned that before too. She's like, “I work for the federal government. There's black Arielle, there's white Arielle, there's U.S. government Arielle, and I don't want to speak up and be loud and use my voice, because I don't want to be labeled that way.” It sounds like you've also certainly experienced that as well. 

CHRISTAL PENICC:   Yeah, I mean, some examples are being in an office with three people, two white men, and one white lady who were like all supervisors, and they were coming to address something with me that I didn't know was an issue. And then, to be able to talk with them about the situation or even defend myself, I got, “Hey, I don't know if you know this, but Christal, you're being defensive, angry, and combative.” It was one of those three words. I just know they all were related. And I'm thinking, “Oh, I've… so you’re trying to say I'm the mad black woman in this situation? Okay, okay.”

PATRICK CASALE:   What did that do to you after having that conversation, and being kind of typecast, so to speak, and just stereotyped like that? How did that go for you going forward with professional development in that place in general?

CHRISTAL PENICC:   Oh my gosh. I made my exit plan to leave that place. It was not for me, even though they served populations that were impoverished, they served a certain zip code in my area, but I made my decision to not be there anymore. And I really liked being in high school and working with students, counseling, and social work type stuff, but I could not continue to serve under that company. You don't forget things like that, ever.

PATRICK CASALE:  What does that do for you and other environments, professionally, if you don't ever forget experiences like that? How does that show up? Or how has that impacted?

CHRISTAL PENICC:   Oh my gosh. You guys know that in the social services world, it's very small. You will see these people, again, in trainings. And you will have to see them and have conversations with them, and probably partner up with them in certain situations. And it's like, I don't want to partner with anything, and then even in my work, I don't want to say anything to clients that way. Because I feel like there's an energy of implicit bias there already. So it’s like that, what do they call it? The savior complex? That has come out so much. I want to help them not just because I want to help, it’s because I have a savior complex, and I've seen it a lot, unfortunately, and I have to check it.

PATRICK CASALE:  It sounds like it's a constant battle in a lot of ways, and really trying hard to get confident in who you are and what you bring to the table, and that there might be some stereotyping and racism, and colonialism based in the profession. And you just have to try hard to step into who you are, and what you bring to the table. And embrace your competency and the fact that you have a master's degree and all the hours of supervision experience to get to an LPC/ MH SP, whatever the fuck it, or Nashville, Tennessee. 

CHRISTAL PENICC:   That’s true.

PATRICK CASALE:  You've worked really hard for that, you've worked really hard to get those degrees and those licenses, and it sounds like that imposter syndrome still rears its head at times, when you're growing or stepping into something bigger and professionally.

CHRISTAL PENICC:   It does, it does. And growing up, the best thing to do is go ahead and get a job, and then to work for the city. That's huge, and then they have really good insurance. You've never had this much insurance in your life. It's like, oh, do you hold on to that? Is that your comfort? Is that your pillow at night? In time, it’s taking pieces of your talent off away from you.

PATRICK CASALE:  Well, you're so right. I think that those types of jobs feel really secure, but not really fulfilling. And once you start to realize there's more out there, then we start to think about what's next. How can we make an exit plan? But then there's the fear of what if it doesn't work? What if it's not successful? What if I leave this secure, consistent career behind? It sounds like you're having a lot of those thoughts in these moments when you're thinking about leaving? 

CHRISTAL PENICC:   Yeah, it's a shocker. Because again, this was my dream. And at one point or the other, I was having fun with what I was doing. I'm glad that the situations have happened the past year, so where it makes me not as comfortable anymore. And I was like, you know what?” I just think the situation for making me uncomfortable, because there's a reason why, and then to get other referrals from people kind of like left and right. And it's like, get it in gear, okay?

PATRICK CASALE:  Something is telling you like, now or never. Let's make this happen. 

CHRISTAL PENICC:   Make it happen, make it happen. As a clinician, we talked about how it is around for how I do my work. But when I have minority clients, my work can look different than with other clients. And it just has to be appreciated. It just has to be known that there’re certain ways that I see a black kid. I feel like black kids are my kids. I don't have any children, but I feel like every black child is my child, like I birthed them. I am very responsible for the information that I give them. If I'm training or doing a counseling session, I'm very much responsible as if I was like their parent, but at the same time, I'm their therapist. I'm not sure if everybody else is that way or what, but I just feel like every kid, what? I say every kid, really, is my kid. But definitely when it’s a black kid.

PATRICK CASALE:  Yeah, I think that has to make a lot of sense. And we need to do a much better job of taking encultural consideration into perspective in the mental health world and community. Because so often we hear the term unethical being thrown around or like we need to practice in evidence-based practice and et cetera, et cetera. But all of that stuff is rooted in western civilization, colonialism, racism, and white supremacy. It's like we did studies on these populations of people,  therefore, it's evidence-based treatment. And that isn't fucking true across the board. We can't treat everybody the same.

CHRISTAL PENICC:   We cannot. That just hit a nerve. Yes, that’s so right, because you have people who are so academic, but they go straight from structure and everything, and not everybody deals with structure. There's other ways around how to provide a service without always being so structured. CBT is fine. I don't have any problems with CBT, but it doesn't always speak to everybody, so you just have to be flexible.

PATRICK CASALE:  Yeah, being flexible is a good point. And you're right. It doesn't speak to everybody. Hell, I hate it. I've done it. And I'm like, “Yeah, this is not for me.” And that's okay, because it is for other people, right?

CHRISTAL PENICC:   Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE:  You and I have talked about stepping into being an authentic practitioner and therapist, and truly embracing the way you view healing work, and bringing yourself into the equation with your personality, your style, the way you speak, really embracing that, because I think authenticity, personality and not being a robot who just shakes their head up and down, it creates instantaneous rapport and feelings of safety and security.

CHRISTAL PENICC:   Yes, indeed. Yeah, I'm more emotional-focused. I want to know how you're feeling, I want to know what your body is feeling. Those are type questions that I want to ask. And there's times where my sessions last a little bit longer. I'm sure with insurance you can only go so far. But yeah, there's just different things that I do that sometimes I don't have permission to do or confer to city.

PATRICK CASALE:  I think we have to think outside the box and recognize that there's not a one size fits all approach, and that it's okay to be yourself. And clients actually prefer it. You've talked a lot on your podcast and in your story about things that you've experienced in your life. I don't want to bring that all up right now. But I imagine when you speak with your clients about your stories, your traumas, and your experiences, it probably creates more connection.

CHRISTAL PENICC:   Oh, definitely. I've created my niche being more grief and loss for this year. Grief and loss used to exhaust me. But now it's more exciting and more of my passion, to be able to speak to people about grief and loss, and be able to sit with people in this journey. Definitely, it has helped so much, especially in the season that we're in, in COVID season, there’s so much loss, there's so much grief.

PATRICK CASALE:  It's never-ending, and grief and loss are subjects that need to be talked about. I just got off a podcast episode with Jill Johnson-Young and we're talking about grief and loss, it's a part of life. I think that naming the fact that we've experienced grief and loss or any sort of struggle really allows clients to feel normal, validated, and just safe. Like, okay, you get it, I can talk to you about this without feeling ashamed or without feeling like I have to hide how I'm feeling.

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Yeah, oh, yeah, definitely. Again, it brings about healing for our clients, and for my clients, indeed, that you have gone through some very heavy hard stuff before. Of course, it’s sprinkled in. I put in a little self-stuff in there, sprinkled in to be appropriate. But then they realize the reason why I'm telling it and the reason why I'm expressing that to them, but it has helped definitely.

PATRICK CASALE:  Yeah, that's well said, we sprinkle it in. Because I know, I already anticipate the ethics police out there, that they listen to these episodes of like, “Oh, my God, you're just sharing your story over and over with your clients.” And it's like, “No, let's share what's appropriate to help a client recognize that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and that it doesn't always have to feel this way. But we get it and we're here with you. And we're experiencing this. And we're holding space because we have done the work with the issues that we have had.”

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Yeah, yeah, it is amazing. It is amazing work not only for us as clinicians, but to see it work for our clients.

PATRICK CASALE:  Totally, totally, totally, totally. I agree. So just circling back, you have a part-time practice, you're thinking about full-time, I want you to just tell the audience what you're going to do to ensure that you are going to do this, so that you can share more of Christal with the world, with your clients, so that when your colleagues are saying, “Hey, Christal, I've got seven referrals for you.” You're not like, “Oh, shit, I actually don't have till 2023.”

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Right, right. Oh my gosh, and then it's funny because I do have another coworker who calls me and she'll say, “Where you at with your business?” And I’m like, “I did this today. I did...” “Okay, I'll call you back and see where you are.” I’m like, “Thank you my accountability.” I have a few people who are putting me up there. Yes, so I forgot your question.

PATRICK CASALE:  That's okay. I want to know what you're going to do,  so that you can make sure that you're going to do this for yourself, because-

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Oh, definitely, yes.

PATRICK CASALE:   …we hold ourselves back from the things that are the most fulfilling, because we're scared of the unknown. Tell us how you're going to embrace the unknown and how you're going to step into your greatness?

CHRISTAL PENICC:  I'm starting out part-time, starting out, because I have one person in queue actually. So this person I made correspondence with, and again, one of the funniest things is I say, “Hey, I'm not accepting any clients until the first week of November.” And I say, “You can wait or I can send you to another clinician that I trust.” They say, “I can wait.” And again, it's funny because we don't have that relationship yet. They came referred from someone they knew that knew me. And I only had a five, ten-minute conversation with them. I'm just thinking, like, “Hey, you can't keep doing this. And I have a private for people to go to.” And another example, today, somebody asked me, “Hey, you know, I got a family member that really needs some help. Do you think they can come here?” And I'm like, “Well, they can come here, but I do have, you know, I'll have some openings in November. So if you can just ask your family member if they're able to wait, if not, I can give you trusted clinicians that they can talk to right now, or call right now.” So, they say, “Okay, just let me know, give me the information.” And again, my clients say, “If you go anywhere, just let me know.”

PATRICK CASALE:  I want to challenge you to embrace that and just start it, because we can always figure out reasons to push it back, and push it back, and get more prepared, and more prepared. And at the end of the day, until we embrace that discomfort and the distress that comes with it, we really can't start to open up space and energy for this. I just want to challenge you to do that. And anyone listening who's experiencing anything similar, I want you to challenge yourself to just put it out to the world, put it out on Facebook, to friends, to colleagues, whatever. Just hold yourself accountable. Once it's out there, the world doesn't stop spinning, it's not that scary, it's just like a weight is lifted, and you can breathe a little bit easier. 

CHRISTAL PENICC:  True, truly. Yes, yes.

PATRICK CASALE:  I just want to challenge you. I hope by the next time that I'm on your podcast, or you're on my podcast, that you're in your private practice seeing your clients, really helping people who want to work with you, and getting out of your own way. I do want you to just tell the audience that's listening in like what stuff you've got out in the world right now where they can find more of  Christal?

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Yes, on podcast, or on social media you will see me as LPC Chris. I am on Facebook. I'm on Instagram and YouTube, and TikTok. I am not the dancing therapist yet. I haven't figured that part out, might not do it. I might do some other stuff. But yes, you will find me on those social media platforms #getnakedtherapist. We'll be back up for new episodes, I call them sessions, in February 2022. I also had a sibling loss podcast. It's called Surviving Sibling Loss: The Forgotten Mourners Podcast, and that comes out on a monthly basis. If you Google any of those, it'll pop up on those streaming apps, and in the future, I look forward to [INDISCERNIBLE 00:27:53] Grief Counseling and Consulting LLC.

PATRICK CASALE:  Yes, I love that. We're going to hold you to that. This is going to be another layer of accountability. I'm going to share this podcast with you when it's out and it's just going to be like, “Christal, you said these things.”

CHRISTAL PENICC:  I did.

PATRICK CASALE:  “Time to do them, right.”

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Yes.

PATRICK CASALE:  I want to just thank Christal for being on here. She's become a good friend and colleague. We've actually never met in person. It's all been virtual due to COVID. It's one of those things where the world has gotten smaller while it's also getting bigger. I want to thank anyone for listening to this podcast. Download it, share it wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to find more information about All Things Private Practice, you can join my Facebook group, All Things Private Practice, or go to my website allthingspractice.com for coaching retreats, about to do one in Ireland in March, and consulting around private practice building and growth. This podcast is really meant to be authentic, have hard conversations, but also, allow you to have a light at the end of the tunnel to let you know you're not alone. And if you're listening at home, we appreciate you. Tune in next week for another episode. Thanks, Christal. 

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Nice.

PATRICK CASALE:  I appreciate you coming on.

CHRISTAL PENICC:  Thank you so much.