Episode 133: Life's Trials: Podcasting, Private Practice, and Personal Growth [featuring Gordon Brewer]

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale. I'm joined today by Gordon Brewer who's an LMFT in Tennessee, a private practice owner, a coach, speaker. Also the host of The Practice of Therapy Podcast. And about 90 miles away from me.

And today, we are going to talk about how to start a podcast, how to monetize a podcast. But we're also going to talk about struggling behind the scene with things that come up in life, because Gordon and I both have talked on his podcasts openly about some of the struggles we're experiencing. And I think that it was just unbelievably validating and normalizing for people listening.

So, Gordon, thanks for coming on and making the time today.

GORDON BREWER: Well, it's my pleasure, Patrick. I've been looking forward to this.

PATRICK CASALE: I know. I've been thinking about it since you and I met in Ashville. And it feels like forever ago. And it all just got busy, which is like pretty standard in the entrepreneurial space. So…

GORDON BREWER: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do. And tell us a little bit about your podcast, because it's a really good one. And it's been around for a while. And it's super helpful for people who are in the private practice space.

And I think that for a lot of people, it's one of the first private practice podcasts that they probably started listening to.

GORDON BREWER: Yes, well, thanks. Yeah. So, yeah, as far as the podcast goes, I've been doing my podcast since 2017 which in retrospect I think that's a really long time. And you know, for most podcasts, I mean, was this thing called podfading where people will just, you know, start a podcast with good intentions, but they don't really keep it up.

But, yeah, been around since 2017 with The Practice of Therapy Podcast. I've got a second podcast called The Kindness & Compassion podcast. And to be a little bit vulnerable, I haven't put the time and effort into that as I had hoped to. But it's still in existence. So, I mean, it's not as regular.

But yeah, so I'm a marriage and family therapist. I have a small group practice in Kingsport, Tennessee. So, I think Patrick mentioned we're about 90 miles apart. So, we're in the northeast corner of Tennessee in a small metropolitan area called the Tri-Cities.

And my practice consists of six clinicians, including myself, plus one admin person. And you know, we're kind of a general practice and we see a lot of different things. But my work, primarily, has been with couples and men struggling with sex addictions, and those kinds of things, yeah.

And so I've been a therapist for, oh, gosh, over 20 years now. It started out like most folks in agency world working for a nonprofit, you know, worked with at-risk children, and youth, and their families and, you know, therapy, and all of that kind of thing. So, kind of a typical journey in that way.

And then, in 2016 I noticed that people were starting to kind of contact me just a little bit about starting a practice. And I realized that when I went into private practice there was little or nothing. When I first went in, of course, I'm dating myself, I started my private practice, I guess, in earnest around 2005, 2006. And there was very little stuff back then how to do a private practice.

But I started listening to some podcasts. And there were a few out there. We mentioned, you know, Melvin, Selling the Couch, and, you know, Joe Sanox, Practice of the Practice, and few others were out there. And I was listening to them. And I was thinking, "You know, this would have been helpful stuff for me early on."

And I thought, "Well, you know, I know some of this stuff, so why not start a podcast?" And so I did. I just kind of hopped into it thinking, "Okay, this sounds fine. I'll try this for a while."

And it really started to get some traction. And so really, kind of has grown from there. And as you know, Patrick, I started the PsychCraft Network last year, which Patrick's a part of that network with this podcast. And really just helped other people really just connect and network around just this whole media and being of support to each other with thinking about monetizing things. And, you know, just helping people, you know, and that's really my main goal, or what I take the most delight in is just being able to help people find resources, help them solve problems, help them, you know, navigate this kind of whole entrepreneurial private practice world, and really kind of reap the benefits of it.

PATRICK CASALE: Love that. So, sounds foundationally like all of the things that you have dipped your hands into or your creative interests that have been foundationally around helping and supporting.

GORDON BREWER: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: And when you say 2017, for podcasting, and we're halfway through 2023, more than halfway, that means you've been consistently putting that podcast out for almost seven years. And I think that's pretty remarkable, because I think you hit the nail on the head where, you know, people start it in and they fail.

And one of the thing that I see is the biggest struggle area, it's consistency, being able to consistently put episodes out. And that doesn't mean like, I have a weekly podcast, I think a lot of us do.

But even if you decide starting out, like I'm going to have a monthly podcast or every other week, but to make sure it's coming out consistently, because your listeners and their behavior, they get conditioned to kind of expect that episode to come out. And if you're not delivering it like that, it's very easy to lose traction, it's very easy to say, "Oh, this is kind of a waste of my time."

And I think a lot of people also struggle when the numbers aren't there immediately, without their recognition or acknowledgment that podcasting kind of starts as a passion project. I don't know if you always go in, like you should go into with a plan to monetize. But it takes time to build that audience, to build that following, to build up the ability to monetize and gain sponsorship.

So, how long would you say it took you to start seeing consistent numbers, and followings, and downloads when you started out?

GORDON BREWER: Yeah, that's a good question. Probably, you know, when I first started out, I really kind of did it with the attitude, "Okay, let's see what happens with this."

And, you know, when I first started, I wasn't all that consistent with it, but I was just putting out here and there. But I would say after about three years into it, and you really kind of see, it's like I think most anything is you encounter in the entrepreneurial world. The people that are successful, or, as I like to say, and you said it too is persistent and consistent with it. You just keep at it, and you keep at it. And eventually, it gets some traction, and it's then exponential from there.

And so that's kind of what I found is I started out, you know, just, you know, a few 100 downloads per month or so. And then as I started getting more consistent with it, and getting more and more content out there, it just took some traction.

So, I would say, you know, which is kind of typical of thinking about the parallels to private practice, is it really takes about two years to get established, I think. And then once you do that, and you get that momentum, then things just kind of open up, and I was really surprised that there were sponsors that were contacting me. I wasn't having to reach out to them. They wanted to have advertise on my podcast.

Because the one thing about podcasting as compared to other media, it's a relatively new media which really I think in the last two years and certainly, it's funny how we mark time with COVID. But since COVID, it really kind of took hold. And there's an explosion of new podcasts that are out there. And so people are finding that, you know, they've got a story to tell and people want to hear their story.

PATRICK CASALE: That's a great reminder for people who are listening who are thinking like, I just started my podcast a month ago, and it doesn't have enough downloads, or it's not getting shared enough, or, you know, any of the things that we start to think about when we feel like things are not successful is that it's not a short term situation, it is much more of a long game in terms of building, and building, and building.

And you hit the nail on the head with, like, that phrase you just used, consistent and persistent, because those things have to happen in order for you to gain the traction, to gain a following.

And you're right, like, you build, you build, you build, because I remember releasing episodes where like 100 people would download, and I was like, "Oh, this is great. And this feels like a lot."

And then all of a sudden, every week, you know, it builds on itself. And then once you work through like, a certain amount of time, well, suddenly, it's like, like you said, exponential.

And it's really wild how quickly that can happen, once that happens that happens. And I want everyone listening to just be patient with the process, because it does take time.

Now, podcasting has, obviously, become a great way to connect with other people, you can share each other's stories, you can share each other's content. It's a great medium for marketing in general. And it's a great medium for information.

And I do think that we're starting to see a lot more people enter the podcast space, which is great, especially, like mental health, entrepreneurial podcasts.

And you've done a great job of highlighting people's stories, and journeys, and adversities over the years. And that's something I want to kind of shift into is that you and I are both kind of having our own set of adversities, and struggles, and just things that we are dealing with behind the cameras. I think that get lost a lot in ''like glamorous ritzy facade of entrepreneurialship" of like, everything's great, my feet are up on the beach all the time, and I can work from anywhere.

In reality, life happens and things are impactful. I know when I was under your podcast, I talked a lot about my vocal surgery, loss of my voice, some other stuff as well. And you shared a little bit about what's going on for you too. Do you have any desire to go into any of that right now? Or share any of what you've been experiencing, too?

GORDON BREWER: Sure, sure. You know, one of the things that, you know, it's a cliché, life happens. But one of the things in my story is that my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2010. And she has gone through just a lot of different treatments, and it metastasized to her brain, and just all of the things that went with that.

And currently, we've started hospice care for [INDISCERNIBLE 00:13:08]. You know, part of it is, this has been she's kind of beaten the odds over the years. But you shift into this different kind of mode, you know.

As we were talking about before we started recording, Patrick asked me, well, how am I doing following this? And, you know, it's a hard one to answer. And I think, you know, when you're dealing with a family member, and having to act as a caregiver, and all of those kinds of things, you go through different stages of grieving, and just the grieving process. It's, the term for it is anticipatory grief. And you go through that.

But I think, eventually, you know, as a survival technique, you really kind of create some emotional distance from it internally. It's not that I don't love my wife and I don't care for her, obviously. But, you know, in order to continue to function, I can't just wallow in it.

And so one of the things is you just kind of go into autopilot to some degree. But the other thing too, is what I've learned and it was hard for me to do this because I kind of went into it kicking and screaming was to… funny pun there, screaming. But, giving myself permission to pull back some and not go so hard with, you know, "Oh, I got to get this content out." Or, "I've got to create this next course. I've got to do this." And just kind of that drive that we kind of associate with entrepreneurialship. I've given myself permission to kind of back off from that.

And I realized too, is being able to, you know, and I've talked about a lot of this with my own therapist, which, again, for those of us that are therapists, I would highly recommend getting your own therapist. But talking about with my own therapist is allowing myself to, yeah, just kind of back off, give myself the downtime that I need, and not be so driven with stuff. It has been a big help for me.

And to remind myself that this is a season, I will move through this, life will change, I have to accept that, that life is changing. And I'll move through this. And eventually, when we get to the fruition of where this is going, you know, I will pick up and start again, maybe start over, maybe hit the reset button, reinvent stuff, which is really kind of what's happened, you know? When I think about how the practice of therapy has evolved since I started it.

I've moved more from, you know, just putting out a lot of courses and things like that is part of by content. But now I've moved more into this whole podcasting realm just because I find it fun. And I get to talk to a lot of great people and get a lot of great content out there. And it's turned out to be a good path so far. But yeah, so life happens.

And I think the other thing too, and just thinking about how I'm dealing with this, you know when I've got, you know, wife that's in the dying process, I've got a lot of great support in my community. I'm surrounded with a lot of great close friends. You know, personally, my faith is a big part of who I am. And so that's been a big support to me as well.

And so, yeah, I think everybody has to find their own way and kind of their own meaning through it all.

PATRICK CASALE: I'm just processing what you're saying. So, I just want to say thank you for sharing that, first of all. I know it's a part of what you're experiencing. And it's also vulnerable and I know. But I just want to say thank you for sharing that.

And I think that you hit the nail on the head. Something I was going to probably say is just the season of being a small business owner and a human. And how complex that is. How when you started as a therapist in community mental health 20 years ago, I find it hard to imagine that you probably thought you'd be sitting here having a successful podcast, group practice, all the other things going on. I know I didn't in 2015, when I graduated. I think that my life experiences have also taken me into a different season.

And I think it can be really challenging for those of us who are used to being really serial entrepreneurially, I don't think that's a word, at least serial entrepreneurs who are so used to creating and feel really inspired by creation. And then you hit this season where circumstance, health, whatever, mental health impacts you and your course, and your path just diverges. And you start to have to come to terms with acceptance around limitations, energy, capacity, protecting yourself in terms of what can I really show up and do? What feels fulfilling? What feels inspiring? What feels energizing versus what feels draining? And then reprioritizing your time in terms of what makes sense for you in terms of what you value.

I know right now, obviously, our situations are not the same, but having a second major throat surgery at the age of 36, losing my voice, having my vocal cords damaged in a profession where I talk a lot, and also being diagnosed as autistic in the same year, I have had to completely re-shift how my business operates from, course creation, program launches, event after event after event, to the recognition of like, that's not possible anymore, it may never be again. And that's okay.

Like you said, giving myself permission to step back, permission to cancel plans that I've already scheduled, because I just don't have it that day, or I don't have the energy, the permission to say no to collaboration offers, and attempts, and opportunities, and permission to put energy and intention into the things that are sparking joy. You mentioned podcasting being fun.

Podcasting was not something on my radar. This November will be two years of it I'm hosting this podcast. That wasn't on my radar until I pressed play the first day and pressed record.

So, I think it's really important for those of you listening, but to just embrace the seasonality of being a small business owner, and just the acknowledgement that there is going to be this like ebb and flow process in your energy. And your capacity is just going to constantly be shifting based on life.

GORDON BREWER: Right, right. Yeah, and I think, you know, the other thing, too, is, you know, for people that might be starting out, whether it's in private practice, with a podcast, or any of that sort of thing, anything new, is to remember not to compare your starting point to somebody else's middle or end point, because…

And I have to remind myself that, too, because it's really easy to get stuck in this whole impostor syndrome when you see, "Oh, here's somebody over here who is Patrick, look at how his podcast is growing. And I've been in business for longer than he has, but his is growing faster than mine is."

And so, you know, getting caught up in that trap is not necessarily a helpful place to be, because, you know, comparing apples to oranges is never helpful other than just to say they're both fruit. Yeah, that's it, yeah, so.

PATRICK CASALE: That's good advice. I think that is such important advice, because I think it's just human nature where we get caught up a lot of the time and like, well, comparison traps, because we're like, actually doing more looking at…. and I think social media plays a major role in that.

GORDON BREWER: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: It's just in your face all the time, especially, if you surround yourself with other people who are doing similar things. So, then, it's like, all I see on my social media feed is people's podcasts, or courses, or retreats. And that'll make me sometimes when I don't have it, have the energy to do more to be like, "I'm not doing enough. Like, I'm not keeping up. I'm not creating. I'm not launching another private practice course. I'm going to be forgotten about.

What reality sets in is like, our situations are just not the same. And I think that is really indicative when we look at timelines, right? Like, I always shoot a…. Like, zooming out and doing like a timeline, my camera that tracks, and [INDISCERNIBLE 00:24:21] like doing a timeline of just, like, starting point till now is really helpful for me. And I know it's really helpful for a lot of people to say like, okay, if I graduated in 2015, I went into community mental health, like you said, you did as well like a lot of us. I assumed at that point in time that was the finish line, right? And I've said this before. Then I left my job in 2017 and opened my own private practice. I thought that was the finish line.

And then and it was a coaching program, and then it was programs, and then it was a Facebook group, a podcast, and retreats, and group practices. But the thing about it is, every time I've started something new, it's allowed me to step back and reflect on what I've created up until that, but more importantly, the times where I have really looked myself in the mirror and be like, "This is really hard. And I don't know if I'll ever be able to create it again. Or I don't know if I'll ever be able to find that drive, again, in terms of my passion."

And I think it's about following your curiosity and your passion to kind of lead you to these different pathways where you can put your energy into new ventures, because I don't have the vocal stamina, capacity, or energy to do coaching programs or coaching anyone. And I've had to just make peace with that.

And when I first came out of surgery in October, my worst fear was losing my voice, and everyone's, "That's not going to happen, that's not going to happen." And I kept saying, "I think it is going to happen." And of course, it did.

And I was doing a lot of one-on-one coaching and coaching programs before that. And it was generating a lot of revenue. And I just had to make peace with the fact that I can't commit to doing that right now. And maybe not ever again.

And I think that's important for those of you who are listening in to just giving, again, like Gordon said, permission to just be okay with that. There might be some grief around it at times. But also, it allows you to put the energy that you do have into the things that aren't bringing you joy that can then potentially be monetized as well as becoming new pathways in your career.

GORDON BREWER: Right, right, yeah. I did everything you said, Patrick, because where I started out and where I am now wasn't even on the radar at the time. And we just don't know where our paths are going to take us.

And I think, you know, to me, and the other thing, too, like, you'll identify with this, because I know enough about you, Patrick, know that you enjoy hiking like I do, and backpacking, and that kind of thing.

And we're here where we live, where we're fortunate that we've got this thing called the Appalachian trail that runs right through close to us. And, you know, one of my bucket list things and my brother and I kind of said we're going to do this, we're going to hike to the sections of the Appalachian Trail that go through North Carolina and Tennessee, where they… So, we got just a small part of that done.

But anyway, I think about the metaphor of walking along the Appalachian Trail, and there's these white markers that marks where the trail goes. And the thing about it is, is that if you get off the trail too far, you can get really lost, especially, in the wilderness around here, in the mountains, and that sort of thing. But if that were to happen, really, your only job at that point is to get yourself back on track, get yourself back on the trail.

And so I think about just life happens. I mean, you know, we've had a lot of bear sightings recently in our area. I know Asheville was inundated with them. But, you know, if a bear comes after you, you do what you need to do, and you're probably not going to stay right on the trail. But once you're out of the woods, so to speak with that, you get back on the trail, and you continue on.

And so I think about that in terms of… and it might be that you decide to get off the trail for a while and do something different. Yeah, so I think that metaphor came to mind.

And another one is if you're, for folks that may be familiar with a guy, he was a professor of comparative religions at Sarah Lawrence College back in the 70s and 80s. And his name was Joseph Campbell. And probably his best-known works are on mythology and the meaning of math. His best-known book is called The Hero's Journey, I believe is what he has.

But one of his quotes that I absolutely love is to simply say, simply I'm paraphrasing, is follow your bliss and when you do that doors will open up for you where you didn't know there were doors. And so I think, to what you're saying, Patrick is you just keep at it. And you find the stuff that really speaks to you and that you find meaning in.

PATRICK CASALE: Couldn't have said that better myself. That's one of my favorite books, by the way, to incorporate into [INDISCERNIBLE 00:30:03] The Hero's Journey. But I think that's so true, because when you follow that, right, that bliss, that passion, that excitement, your brain starts to become more creative. So, you may be facing these roadblocks, you may be facing these barriers or thinking like, "I don't really know what else I can do, or what else I could offer, or create, or what inspires me?" But once you find that, it's like, all of those ideas start coming, your brain starts working, gets online home as soon. I agree 100%.

And, you know, since you're in the mood for metaphors, I always was think about entrepreneurship and life is like just driving down a highway, and then getting off at an exit. And sometimes you have to reroute, sometimes you have to make a U-turn, sometimes you need a pit stop, sometimes you need a stranger to help change your tire. But nevertheless, you keep driving.

And I think that there's no finish line here. It's just different chapters, different places of excitement, different places to spend your time, energy, and resources. And there are going to be struggles, because life is full of them. And just being persistent and consistent where you can be and giving yourself permission to take the foot off the gas when you can't be, and not to beat yourself up too much when you just don't have the energy, the capacity, the focus, or the time.

GORDON BREWER: Right, right. And, you know, as you know, one of that one of the things that comes to mind too, and I think for those of us in this profession of working with clients, and you know, a theme that comes up a lot is, you know, people just struggling with anxiety.

And I think anxiety is that one kind of experience that's underneath that drives a lot of us. And I think one of the things that, you know, like I like to say is anxiety has a way of tricking us into thinking we can't handle things.

But the truth of the matter is most of us have what we need to be able to handle whatever is thrown to us. It might not be pretty, it might be painful, it might be messy, but we can handle it. Another terrible metaphor is just kind of like if he could think of, you know, a toilet that's clogged up and it's overflowing. Well, the only thing you can do at that point is get in there and get messy, and take care of it. And, you know, either that, or either that, or run away.

But you know, most of the time we don't have that choice, you know? But we handle it. And it's not fun. It's not pretty. It's not good to have to do, but we handle it.

PATRICK CASALE: I like that. And that's very true. You know, it's very, very true. And I think that's good advice and hope everyone listening can feel validated and supported if you are going through some seasonal life right now and just questioning all the things existentially that come up, because I know they do.

And I really just appreciate you coming on here and sharing some of your story, and offering so many great tips, and support for our listeners.

GORDON BREWER: Well, thanks, Patrick. I love to having these conversations. And I think, yeah, one of the things that's sometimes hard to do, but I think it's a necessity, and being able to make it through the hard times is being able to allow ourselves to be vulnerable.

PATRICK CASALE: I agree, 100%. And maybe there's just a reason that we waited so long to record together on each other's lessons. It was just timing and life circumstance. So…

GORDON BREWER: Right, right, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Please tell the audience where they can find everything you've got going on, because you have a lot of wonderful resources.

GORDON BREWER: Oh, well, thanks. So, probably the place that I'm most known for is just simply go to the website practiceoftherapy.com and you can find links to all, you know, the podcasting stuff, that sort of thing.

And also for folks that want to find other great podcasts just like this one is to go to psychcraftnetwork.com. And we have a great group of podcasters that make up this little network. I think we're up to 15 different podcasts now. And so we have other people that are joining.

And if you're listening this and you have your own podcast or interested in starting a podcast feel free to reach out to me. And I'll be glad to help you get started and point you in the right direction.

PATRICK CASALE: Love it. Thank you so much for the time, Gordon. And all Gordon's information links will be in the show notes so that you have easy access to those as well. Wonderful resources and I highly recommend checking them out.

GORDON BREWER: Awesome.

PATRICK CASALE: You're welcome.

GORDON BREWER: Thanks for having me.

PATRICK CASALE: Of course, and to everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcasts, new episodes are out every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week.