Episode 152: Unmasking Autism in Leadership Roles and Business [featuring Maureen Werrbach]

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the All Things Private Practice podcast. I'm joined today by a really good friend and colleague that most of you probably know, Maureen Werrbach, who is the owner and founder of The Group Practice Exchange. She owns a group practice in the Chicago, Illinois area. She does coaching, she is a speaker, she's going to be at a bunch of my events in 2024 and '25.

And today we are going to talk about neurodivergent leadership, neurodivergent entrepreneurialship, and whatever else comes up for two neurodivergent humans as they're talking on a podcast. So, welcome back, and thanks for coming on.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, I'm excited to be on and I love that you added wherever our brains end up going in this conversation.

PATRICK CASALE: That feels pretty appropriate. So, Maureen and I are both autistic ADHD entrepreneurs, group practice owners, therapists, creatives. And I think that I knew you were autistic before you were autistic. Does that sound about right?

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yep.

PATRICK CASALE: And-

MAUREEN WERRBACH: I loved our first hangout. We talked-

PATRICK CASALE: Our first hangout.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Well, you'll have to tell your version at the end just because, obviously, you knew something was up that prompted you to say it.

But Patrick and I had kind of known each other in the online world as, you know, most of us in the group practice and coaching world sort of first meet in Facebook groups and all that stuff. And so, we've been chatting for a while. But we were both speaking at Ajita Robinson's event a couple years ago, a year or two ago, in Maryland. And Patrick sent me a message as I was literally getting out of the Uber to get into my hotel room there. And it was like, "Hey, do you want to meet?" And I feel like this is where we have slightly different flavors in terms of our autistic side because I'm very introverted and like, don't want to hang out with anyone, usually. And you, I know you have that fight of you, but you definitely like to be around people, too.

PATRICK CASALE: I have more social motivation, for sure.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah. And so, I was like, "I mean, I just got here. I'm literally stepping out of the Uber." And I was super nervous. My brain initially goes to, when I meet new people, like, what if I don't know what to say? I only know them when it comes to, like, work. So, I'm, like, scripting in my head of, "Okay, so I'll talk about we're both coaches or…"

But I was very nervous that I, like, wouldn't know what to talk about with you. So, I was excited but nervous. And I literally was like, "Okay." And this is what I have to do sometimes, is I just will send the yes message without thinking fully because otherwise, I'll talk myself out. So, I was like, "Okay."

Well, we ended up having the funnest night. We both got way too drunk together and hung out all night at different bars and places. And I feel like halfway through the night, or was it even closer to the beginning? Was it the second place we went?

PATRICK CASALE: The second place, yeah.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, yeah. So, okay, closer to beginning, you literally, like, turned to me and you were like, "You know you're so autistic, right?" That was literally how you said it. I remember it.

And so, my eldest child is autistic. And I had, for the past year, slight amount of like as they were getting older, they're teenager, I'm starting to notice their personality is a little like mine, and the way they interact and sensory stuff. I'm seeing myself in them. But I'm like, "I've lasted this long there's no way. And, you know, I can give eye contact." I did all that stupid shit.

And so, I had a little bit of thinking, "Maybe." But then, I was like, "Probably not." Like, okay? But then, I met you and you're like, "You know you're so autistic, right?" And I remember this immediate, like, release of tension, and like, almost like the approval I needed to explore it.

And so, I loved that moment. I was so glad that you were so upfront about it. And I literally went home a few days later after we both gave our talks and scheduled an appointment to get evaluated or tested and got the diagnosis a couple months later.

But yeah, thanks to you, you sparked that because I would have probably just been sort of thinking it and also being like, "No, you know, I'm not enough of it to be it." You know?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad that you received it that way. It was obviously a bold move on my part to be like, "Hey, by the way, this is the first time we're actually meeting. Here's this life-altering information."

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Well, I think the alcohol probably helped with that.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I would agree that there was liquid courage there. You know, for me, on my end, like, I think this is something that, for those of you listening who are questioning or already know that you're autistic, or you are neurodivergent, in general, there is this, like, deep ability to be empathic and intuitive on energy, especially, if you're around other neurodivergent humans. So, you start to pick up on certain behaviors, certain like, ways that we communicate, certain ways that, like, you can notice when people are visibly uncomfortable in certain situations too, and have immediately, like, try to soothe it. So, I've always been really good at that.

Nevertheless, Maureen and I are now really good friends and have traveled the world together. And it's interesting because I think that when we get this diagnosis right there's a lot of internalized ableism that comes up, at least for me and for a lot of late-in-life diagnosed high maskers who are "successful" in their journeys of professional whatever.

And I know for me, my first instinct was like, "No, I own two businesses. No, I'm successful. No, I can be social." Like checking off all the very ableist, like, boxes of, "Of course, I can't be autistic."

Once I started to really deep dive and better understand the high masking portion of autism for so many people who are late diagnosed or adult diagnosed, how often we're masking and have learned all of these strategies to soothe, and fit in, and be a part of, and be overly productive to prove that we aren't different, or whatever is happening behind the scenes it's like, "Holy shit." And it just takes an enormous amount of energy to move through the world.

And you and I are both group practice owners. You have The Group Practice Exchange membership. You have the master classes, like trainings, etc. You're a speaker. You're an author now. Congrats on that, by the way. And I think for a lot of women, especially, you know, you have German background too, so there's so much there that would be easy to miss.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: That's what I always blamed. I was like, "I'm just introverted. I'm an only child. I didn't get a lot of socialization. I have a German mom and a military dad. Like, if you can, have the most strict people in your life that really allow you to navigate very little." Like, autism was not there, you know?

PATRICK CASALE: So, post-diagnosis. Now, we're going on like over a year. It's about a year because I think that summit was last July or something like that.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: What has business looked like for you in terms of leadership, in terms of creativity, now that you have better understanding, like, I'm an autistic ADHD human, what does that look like behind the scenes for Maureen Werrbach?

MAUREEN WERRBACH: I feel like there's a lot more acceptance. Now, I will say I had, like, this high for a minute, like finally having something to point to or you know, to the who's me thing. But then I did, I think, I brought this up to you last time I saw you. Maybe it was in, I know it was in… No, it wasn't in Greece, Alaska. We went to Alaska, I think I brought up there where I was like, "I'm annoyed sometimes at it, because I realize how much it is affecting everything."

And when I wasn't aware, when I didn't know I was autistic, I think I didn't pay attention as much to some of the struggle parts. I just thought it was like, everyone's struggles in life, you know, whatever. And so, there have been moments now, like, post the, like, I don't know, for me, no excitement isn't the right word. But like, yeah, excitement maybe, of like, I'm so glad to know this piece about me. Huh?

PATRICK CASALE: Excitement, validation, like it's-

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Validation, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: But now there's parts, moments where I'm like, "Well, this is annoying. Like, why do I have to have a harder time thinking of, like, conversations with people?"

And you mentioned the masking piece, I did not realize how much I masked. And it wasn't until hanging out with you, and I've not had this experience with anyone else to this day, how your, like, just as one example, I remember there you're like, "I, you know, don't give eye contact if I don't feel like it." And I think this is before you said to me, "Oh, you're so autistic."

But I remember being like, "It gave me some amount of validation to not have to either." And I didn't realize that, as an example, eye contact was maybe uncomfortable for me. I don't think I even paid that much, but I would rather not, like, do that.

Or in the masking sense, I remember when I was with you, like, I feel like I move a lot more when I'm around you. I feel like I try really hard to just sit still and like, keep eye contact with people, and like, make sure to think of questions to ask them to show them I'm interested in them. And this all feels very second nature to me in a lot of ways that I didn't realize it was masking. I just always was like, "You're just a little weird, you know?"

And it wasn't until I hang out with you that one day where I was like, "Oh my God, I'm moving so much more." I remember going off-topic a lot more with you because you just kind of flowed in these conversations. I apologized. I remember a bunch being like, "Sorry, what did you ask? Where did I go?" But it was like this realization of letting the mask down a little bit that I didn't know I had.

So, I noticed that in business I'm just more aware of it. I definitely mask most of the time in business. But I'm doing like, little bits of work now to just even acknowledging to my audience that I'm autistic. I feel like it's helping me be a little bit more authentic in terms of, like, how I present, I should say, because I feel like I'm much more, like my presentation I didn't realize was so stifling for so long.

PATRICK CASALE: That's really well said. And thank you for that because, you know, I think that when we find our people, friends, groups, partners, business, colleagues, whoever that you can unmask around life becomes significantly different, and so much more freeing, and like liberating in so many ways because, like you said, thinking so much, using so much emotional and psychological energy to think about like, what do I say next? How do I script conversation? Like, what if I can't make eye contact? What do I do? What if I want to stim and I want to move but I feel like that would be disruptive? Or the person might think I'm weird? Or all of the things that happen. And then, to move into a space where you're like, "Oh, this is what that's like to actually be myself."

And I think for so many autistic people sense of self is really challenging to unpack because if you've been a high masker most of your life, it's really hard to know yourself, it's really hard to know your likes, your dislikes, your preferences, like what you actually enjoy doing as a human, and how you like communicating and socializing. So, I love that in general.

I like that you mentioned, like, you're starting to notice how it's impacting your business and how you present. And I also think it's probably important to just notate, like, as a woman who owns multiple businesses and has a pretty significant following and audience. I imagine it's significantly harder at times to unmask fully in certain environments because you're already having to go into certain situations, like, very aware of the dynamics at play, and how you present, and how you show up, and how you're going to be taken seriously or not, etc.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot about Natalie Edmond is, some of your audience might know who she is. She's a group practice owner as well, but she's an anti-racism coach. And I started doing individual anti-racism work with her in, like, 2018 maybe.

And literally, I have a very bad memory. But this is one thing I remember clear as day. It was on our first meeting. And her first question was like, "What are your identities?" And I was like, at the time, a wife, like mom, business owner. And I was like, "I don't know. I'm a wife, mom, business owner, white."

And she was like, "What's your sexuality?" And I was like, at the time, bi, lesbian now. But I was like, "Bi." Just like neurodiversion, I was like, "ADHD." Like, forgetting all of these things, like these other pieces of my identity that play into.

And she had talked about how the privilege of having identities that aren't easily noticeable, like, being bi but with a man. Like, I was married to a dude at the time. Like, that's the privilege I had at the time, being part of LGBTQ community, but like being able to not need to share it or not have to share it that where other people can't, right? Like, black, you can't hide that. If you're a lesbian and you're married to a woman, you can't hide that.

And so, I was thinking about this with relation to being autistic and feeling like I didn't realize I was masking this whole time. But now, you know, these past years, so I'm recognizing when I'm masking or when I feel like, "Oh, I could be more comfortable doing this a little differently." I guess that's how I'm noticing what masking is. I'm like, I don't know who the real me is if I've been masking since I was born. Like, I don't know. Like, it's really hard to figure out how to peel away at what's part of a mask and what's true.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: But with coming to this realization and trying to be authentically me in front of a large audience of people it's noticing, like, like I said, my first kind of step for me I'm very, you said lists are an autistic thing. I did not realize this until I read this book, Girl Unmasked, and she was like, "I love lists." And I'm like, "I do too."

But I kind of gave myself like this, like, list of how to be more authentically me because I don't like a lot of attention, and I always think of like a new diagnosis I came out as a lesbian a few years ago. That felt very scary because it's like this big thing that's a tension, right? That people are going to talk about. So, with the diagnosis, I remember being, like, thinking of Natalie's privilege of not sharing or, and even with being autistic because I'm so good at masking I could keep that going. I mean, I guess you noticed it, so maybe people would notice it anyways.

But I also want to say maybe I had some ingrained comfortability around you that I'm… because I don't know that anyone else would have pegged me for autistic before. So, I've been thinking about her statement of like, the privilege of being able to, like, hide identities of yourself, but also like what it means to show it to the world, and like how that can impact other people's ability to be authentically themselves.

So, I guess I'm in the unpacking stages where on my list has been that I just name it, now people know it. And I'm hoping that as time goes that I can let my little twerks out with it, but I'm still on that unpacking stage. I don't know where you're at with it because, I mean, you've been diagnosed a little longer than me, but also newer, how has that been with you? Because I feel like, for me, it's just a slow [CROSSTALK 00:19:58]-

PATRICK CASALE: And I think it really should be a slow process for most people. I think there needs to be a lot of intentionality. I know we want to, like, we have this life-altering thing, we want to scream it from the rooftops. For a lot of people who don't look like me, that's not a safe thing to do.

So, I have always acknowledged the privilege that I have as being a white het cis man. And I feel like my mission in life has always been to speak about experiences that I'm struggling with publicly, to help people who cannot publicly speak about their experiences. And that's been something I've been doing for as long as I can remember. So-

MAUREEN WERRBACH: I love that you do that, by the way. It's helpful for me, and it's not something I do. I am not easy with vulnerability. And it's something I'm really aware of, but I wish I could be better at, which is sharing the struggle part. I often do it alone, you know? And I love that you are vulnerable enough to share those things.

PATRICK CASALE: Thank you. I think that's exactly it. You know, it's like so many people. Some people could probably look at my platform and be like, "You're just talking about this for audience, like, for engagement." And then, it's like, "No, I'm talking about the people who DM me or email me behind the scenes that are like, 'Hey, thank you for saying something that I've been feeling, or experiencing, or questioning that I don't feel safe enough to also put out into the world for whatever reason.'"

And that has always been something that is a driving force, it's a value of mine. And authenticity and vulnerability for me go hand in hand. So, the more authentic I can be, the more vulnerable I become, but the more I also create space for people to feel seen, or affirmed, or understood. And as someone who's gone through most of their lives feeling misunderstood, and different, or isolated, or lonely, or just like what is wrong with me? Why can't I access, like, things other people can access? I think that's always been a really important piece of my mission and my journey is to just show up and do that. And so, I think that's a big part of it.

But I also fully acknowledge the privilege that I have and the ability to do that without much repercussion, too. Like, I own my own business. I'm not going to get fired for what I say. I'm white. I can move a lot in space. If I need to stim outside, I don't have to worry about, like, what's going to happen to me if I'm, like, acting erratically. So, I have to just acknowledge that too.

But I think the more we can talk about this stuff, and show up, and be ourselves, like for you to even be public about it, you know, you mentioned, "I came out as a lesbian. I came out now as autistic." When we have these big public-facing platforms and people follow your stuff, whether it be for the content, for the tips, for the strategies, for the community, whatever the case may be, we have a ripple effect anytime we are talking about this stuff. So, even the fact that you're still in the unpacking phase, I think, it's powerful for people to hear about because the unpacking phase is a place where a lot of people find themselves in where they're, like, really questioning everything. And everything kind of gets turned on its head. And when you're diagnosed, you're not a different human then…

MAUREEN WERRBACH: No.

PATRICK CASALE: …or before diagnosis. But you see the world through a completely different lens. And I think that's what leads to like the grief relief aspect and component that I talk about a lot is like the grief of what would childhood, and early adolescence, and adulthood been like if I had known, and had accommodation, and had support, and had an understanding there's grief of, like, the ableism that comes up of I'm not able to do certain things, but I feel like I should be. There's major relief in understanding why. I think there's validation. I think it feels like everything makes sense and I really would not want to have it any differently because life prior to diagnosis was pretty torturous. It doesn't mean life's significantly easier now, but it is a lot easier to understand.

And I think as deeply analytical people, a lot of autistic people, I should say are deeply analytical. They want to know the why, they want the meaning, they want to understand why things work the way they do. Understanding why we work the way we do is super important in that process. So, I think it frees us up to also be more authentic in our businesses, in our entrepreneurial journey, in our leadership journey, how we show up for other people. So, I think this all has an impact in all of these areas.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: And, like, impact in our businesses and with our employees too because I think no matter how much safety as a leader you model, there is something about them recognizing that the person who leads the business is neurodivergent. And so, if there's just specific to be neurodivergent, like, a comfortability with asking for accommodations that they might not have felt comfortable with had they not known this about me.

And so, I noticed so much more conversations about accommodations in my business since I said I was autistic, which is so funny because they've all known I have ADHD, but I don't know why the autistic piece, like, seemed to create more dialog in my business with my employees around.

And my integrator, Dana, who's my executive director, she also recently got an autism diagnosis too. And so, it's like the two people leading the business are autistic women. It like, literally, has opened the doors to everyone, like, kind of talking about accommodations, not even if they're neurodivergent. But like, accommodations just as a human to create a work environment that feels conducive to, like, them being successful, which I love.

PATRICK CASALE: Love that, yeah. I feel same way. I think that this is like advocacy at its purest form, by showing up, and modeling, and talking about our own struggles, our own diagnoses, our own neurodivergence, etc. It gives your employees permission to do the same.

And I know for us, like, we attract mostly neurodivergent therapists, all of our leadership team is neurodivergent. Like, 95% of our staff is neurodivergent. It allows for a container, a unique container of safety for them to unmask, to be more direct in communication, to have team meetings where they keep their videos off, or they don't have to make eye contact, or whatever. So, it's just creating this environment that is so opposite of the neurotypical, like, "9:00 to 5:00 this is how careers work, this is how support works."

And it's just like, well, this doesn't work for us, so let's do it differently, and really invest into the collective, into the community, into the people we support, etc. And I think it has this massive, like, ripple effect from leadership to client, and all the in-between pieces as well. So…

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, I agree. I agree.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, I could have this conversation with you all day. I just want to say, you know, publicly, and I've told you this in person, but I'm unbelievably grateful for our friendship because it was not something I expected out of meeting each other in July last year in Maryland. It's interesting when you find your people, though, who just get it without having to explain it. I just think it makes a massive difference. And I really appreciate you for that.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah. Well, ditto. You're still, I think the only person I fully unmask around, although, I just found out that you're sharing this video. So, people will also see my…

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:28:10] your therapy.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah. But yeah, I am incredibly lucky that you pushed to hang out with me that one day because it probably wouldn't have happened. If it was up to me, it wouldn't have.

PATRICK CASALE: You know it was just, "Hi, do you want to get food? "Okay, I just got here." "Okay, do you want to get food?" "Yes, sure." "How do you feel about Yemenis food?"

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yeah, and I am the pickiest. I only eat plain carbs. Like, I was like, "Sure I can have bread there, I'm sure." Is what I was thinking.

PATRICK CASALE: Big risks, big rewards. Here we are.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Yep, yep, yep.

PATRICK CASALE: Where can the audience find you, your podcast, your membership site, your book? Anything you want to share with them and we'll put it in the show notes as well.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Just go to thegrouppracticeexchange.com, all of it's there.

PATRICK CASALE: Perfect.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Podcast link is there, my book link is there, membership is there. Keeping it simple, yep.

PATRICK CASALE: We will have that in the show notes for everyone who's listening so that you have access to all Maureen's information. I will say she just wrote a book called The Accountability Equation. Fantastic resource for leaders, leadership styles, group practice owners, all things leadership, if I'm being honest.

The Group Practice Exchange podcast is really freaking good. I was just on there an hour ago. Her membership is top notch. And I'm not just saying this to blow smoke. I've told you this privately. Maureen's group practice membership is fantastic. It's how I started my group practice. I think it was the most valuable $100 a month I ever spent at the time. I honestly didn't even open it for six months because I was so overwhelmed. Then one day I just opened it, dove into all of your resources, and was like, "Why did I wait so long?" So, congrats on everything you've created.

MAUREEN WERRBACH: Well, I appreciate all the positive feedback. You know, I don't take it well.

PATRICK CASALE: That is also a wonderful autistic trait for all of us who just really struggle to absorb and take in compliments. So, yeah, I get that.

To everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out on every single Saturday on all major podcast platforms and YouTube.

We still have room in our neurodivergent Beyond Burnout retreat in Belize next January. If you are a neurodivergent entrepreneur, make sure to check out that opportunity that Gabrielle Juliano-Villani and I are co-hosting together in San Ignacio Belize. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. We'll see you next week.