Episode 157: Break the System: Self-Sacrifice to Empowerment for Helping Professionals [featuring Flint & Xilo Del Sol]

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the All Things Private Practice podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale. I'm joined today by some really special guests. I've got Flint and Xilo Del Sol, is that correct?

XILO DEL SOL: Del Sol.

PATRICK CASALE: I want to make sure I say everything properly on together today, which is really cool. I like the conversation we're about to have. Flint, he/him is a veteran transgender teacher and educational content creator with over a decade of experience in the classroom and within state and national LGBTQ education policy. And has recently moved into advocacy and public health as a training lead at the National Cancer nonprofit. Has over 360,000 followers on social media, which is pretty amazing. Lives in the high desert of California on a small farm with his husband, Xilo, where he is writing his first book. Congrats on that.

FLINT DEL SOL: Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: And caring for a flock of high-maintenance chickens. I really love that statement because I have a high-maintenance Shih Tzu scratching the shit out of the bed behind me right now.

[CROSSTALK 00:01:56] And Xilo, he/him is a Mexican American queer and neurodivergent coach, social worker, educator, working to empower others to better understand themselves and thrive in a world designed to mother and build our authenticity, skipping through, skipping through tons of important stuff that I just can't focus on right now. Recently added a second master's degree to credentials, working to build a unique private practice separate from the ableist and often discriminatory systems that keep so many neurodivergent and queer folks from entering and leading conversations in therapy and social work, lives in California, proud father of two dogs, two cats, 13 chickens, and 65 thriving house plants. Wow. My wife would be impressed and jealous at the same time.

XILO DEL SOL: It is more than that, for sure, now. I think that we're moving up to 70 as I'm looking around.

PATRICK CASALE: Good for you. You know, whatever brings us joy in our lives, especially, as you transition into, like, this new space of working from home, creating your own businesses, and you have to have stuff around you that feels comforting, I think, is really the most important piece.

So, today we are talking about how you were both kind of leaving systems, education, mental health, etc., embarking on this new journey together, starting a business together, and really taking on everything that comes with that. So, out of curiosity, how does that feel in the moment?

FLINT DEL SOL: I think that I'll start. So, I think this is the most terrifying thing that I've probably ever done in my whole life. And especially, people who enter into education, a lot of us become teachers because we want security, right? There are a lot of things that make teaching really challenging, but one of the only perks is that you know what's going to be there, right? It's job security. You always have the same days off, same salary, like you have an anticipation of what your life is going to look like forever.

And I thought it was going to be my whole world until I retired. I had every plan to do that. And so, it's very, very scary to suddenly pivot into a completely new direction.

XILO DEL SOL: Yeah, it is both incredibly grounding and anxiety-inducing, which is wild because it's taken me a long time to acknowledge that those two things could exist at the same time. Like grounding, in the sense, all of a sudden, my nervous system is like, "Oh my gosh, everything I'm doing is something that's interesting to me." Like, I don't feel that having to pull teeth the way I did when I was having to write papers for school or do things at nonprofits and jobs that I was not fully satisfied in. But hopefully, there's this little anxiety that's like, "Well, you can now officially overwork yourself to death because there will always be more that your brain can come up with. And how are you going to balance that? And also, how are you going to actually make money?" And so, it's the competing, "This feels so good." And also, "This is so scary."

PATRICK CASALE: Which is such an autistic ADHD experience of like, the ADHD side saying, like, "Oh my God, this is amazing, interest-based nervous system. Like, let's pursue the things we're passionate about." And then, the autistic side like, "What about all the finite details and all the things that could go wrong, and all of the ways this could implode?"

Well, I want to give you both congratulations because this is a huge step. We're going to talk a little bit about what you're creating and why. But you know, this podcast really centers on a lot of the risk-taking that is involved in becoming an entrepreneur and putting yourself out there. There's an enormous amount of vulnerability in terms of creating content, creating courses. Are people going to buy them? Are they valuable? Are people going to think they suck? All the times that you can post and can be exposed, and things can happen from a standpoint of criticism and even discrimination? So, this is a big endeavor.

I want you all to soak that in because so many people just let these ideas live in their heads, and they never take action on them. So, I think that's the big difference when we talk about entrepreneurial journeys, in general. So, tell us a little bit about what you're creating, who it's for, and why you're creating it?

FLINT DEL SOL: Man, I think that, you know, you'd say, "Take a moment to soak that in." And I think I still am, just for a minute. And I have been for, like, several years. You'd mentioned content creation, which, well, right, like I'm deeply familiar with as well.

I met, I think he's like, 360,000, 361, 000, something like that, followers, and that's primarily because of my work in education as a trans teacher. Way before I understood myself as autistic or ADHD, I knew I was trans. And there is nothing that invites more criticism online than daring to be trans, especially, to be trans in education.

And so, right, like this morning, waking up to a campaign of people who are, like, signing me up on my brand-new work email for, like, spam mailing list, like nonsense because I'm advocating right now for some stuff that's happening in Texas with IDs. And so, it's just non-stop and has been non-stop for a long time. And I think that, you know, when you're teaching or when you're doing something else full-time, you don't have the ability to center all of your attention on what you want to be centering your attention on. And in this case, right, you're asking what it is that we're producing and for who, we're trying to make products like, right, like downloads and services with coaching for people like us, right? For people who are queer or neurodivergent, who are trying to navigate a world that is very much designed to not give you the opportunity to thrive, right? To try to push you down and make sure that you don't have the opportunity to self-actualize.

XILO DEL SOL: Yeah, so much of this work is helping other people with our identity. We've been really… really your episode on identity-based businesses has really helped us understand the importance of helping people like us in the impact of what that has on us as entrepreneurs. And we're just really excited to finally be in a place where we've had time to understand ourselves, to learn how to regulate it ourselves, and be in a partnership that's going to be able to withstand the stress of starting a business and pay it forward now that, like, we feel we've had so much privilege around being able to have time to transition, unmask, and having the space to have coaching, workshops, and services for other people also trying to get out of survival mode. It's really exciting.

FLINT DEL SOL: I think that that survival mode bit is so critical, right? Like the one thing that we definitely do have, more than a lot of people in our position, is time. Like, we are in a situation in which, like, our living situation is really stable, and if we went a couple of months without making any money it would be okay. Most people who are trans don't have that opportunity. And autistic, right? And ADHD. And all the intersections between those identities.

And we've lived lives up to this point, right? We're both in our mid-30s, where we've tried to take this work and we've been cramming it into the corner of our lives, doing it in small bits, and have never been able to dedicate all of our time and attention to it. And so, yeah, it's a big, terrifying jump from there to here.

PATRICK CASALE: That's really a great summation. And I think the terrifying jump is real. And I also think the time component that you mentioned is such a luxury that a lot of people don't have.

So, for so many entrepreneurs, right? Like, for those who want to have autonomy, and freedom, and kind of design their day-to-day, which is hugely important for me and for so many people, especially, neurodivergent people, especially, autistic ADHD people, the time is so important. It's so precious. It's that resource that we don't get back. And I know that until you can really immerse yourself in it, in the journey, it's so hard to create the thing you want to do. But there's a catch-22 of like, but in order to do this thing, I have to leave this security behind, and that is fucking horrifying.

So, to put it mildly, just saying that, can you tell me a little bit… And one, I want to just circle back, like, one, that sucks that people are doing that to you. I think it's so courageous and so brave for you to just be open, and public, and just continuously endure because I recognize, like, even as an autistic person, I still have an enormous amount of privilege. So, like, I don't really necessarily concern myself with what I'm posting on a day-to-day in terms of repercussion or ramification. And I think that just is an additional layer when we have these intersecting identities that open us up, not just for vulnerability and criticism, but potential danger as well.

So, I don't really know what I want to say with that. I just want to name it and acknowledge that. And it's a polarizing time to be just talking about any of the stuff we're talking about because we're leading into a really hellacious election landscape, and, like, there's a lot on the line. So, I just want to give you both credit for just stepping into what you said before, just self-actualization, and just saying, like, I'm going for this. So, just really going to give you that. And I think that's a huge, huge, huge thing.

Now, in terms of a breaking point, you were an educator, you were in mental health. Do you have breaking points that were like, "This is why I'm leaving this behind." Because I do, and I talk about it a lot. Or we all do, right? So, if you want to share that story or any of that context?

FLINT DEL SOL: Absolutely. I think we had mentioned that you usually have like a time limit on these podcasts. If anything, this is going to be the thing that takes us over, and it's going to be worth it, I promise. And when we're talking about like queerness, there's often, like, the coming out, right? Like the moment where you come out as queer. And a lot of people who are not part of the community don't understand that you actually come out about a million times over the course of your life, not only to just different people, but also, you kind of are coming out to yourself over and over again.

Like, before I was a trans guy, right? I identified as non-binary. Before I was non-binary, I was a lesbian, right? There were like little bits that get you closer and closer. So, like, I like to call myself a lesbian alumnus. Like, I think that that's an important…

And so, like, it's the same thing with having these realizations, these breaking points that I have absolutely can point to several moments that got me closer and closer to the end breaking point. Because my real big end breaking point wasn't even from teaching to here, it was working at a nonprofit that I actually my last day is Friday, and so, like [INDISCERNIBLE 00:13:04] turn to my two weeks a week ago. I was working at a nonprofit, and it was supposed to be my way out of education. And I had a friend who had a really traumatic and horrifying experience at a hospital, so another trans guy who had a life-threatening emergency and was being treated like less than dirt at this hospital, which is really common, again, for trans guys, and for trans people in general. And so, I knew I had to go get him.

And this is an LGBT-focused organization that I'm working at who should understand these things. And I was not able to miss a meeting to go get him. Like, the meeting couldn't be rescheduled. It was critical, right? I had to be there.

And so, I'm sitting there on the freeway, like, fumbling with my phone trying to get it to connect to Zoom as I'm going to try to pick somebody up from a hospital who's just had this horrifying experience. I'm like, "Why am I doing this to myself? Like, why am I submitting myself to this kind of moment when I don't have to, right?" I know I have the audience, and I have the skills, and I have the product, right? I have all these things laid out that I know I can be doing, and the only thing that's keeping me from not doing it is the fear of a safety net.

And at some point, it's just not good enough, right? It's not good enough to say, I want to be making you know less than I'm worth even there in order to have these continually traumatic experiences that are just continuing to pile on an already really challenging life. And so, that was, like, the big one from this to this business that I'm doing with Xilo now.

XILO DEL SOL: Yeah, I think those elements of needing a space where we can be fully authentic, in control of our safety and needs, and have a flexibility were the breaking points for both of us. You know, throughout my getting my master's in social work, I thought I would go the traditional route of graduating, you know, getting my hours under a supervisor at, you know, a big social work organization or agency. And the more I engaged with internships and environments, I realized I got my master's in social work because I know I need to have my own practice in business because I need that flexibility and control and ability to be myself.

And unfortunately, my social work program continued to, like, actually push what it's supposed to look like. And I was really struggling with, you know, having to actually mask a lot as a therapist and struggling with internships that were really harmful, and the cognitive dissonance between how things were being managed, and what I knew like at my core for the people I want to serve was needed, was so much that I, finally, you know, worked a lot with my own therapist to unlearn what I had even learned there in my program to I can do this without continuing to give my energy, time, and money to a system that is still not designed for neurodivergent or queer people. And that includes, you know, the Association of Social Workers, right?

And so, really, you know, when I was getting ready to graduate, I mean, like, I'm not going to apply for the traditional social work jobs. I'd already had, you know, individual coaching clients for a few years, and have extensive work in coaching in various capacities. But ultimately, that was the most recent turning points, you know? Of course, as unmasked neurodivergent people who have lived many lives, we have many turning point stories. But definitely the most recent was realizing that there's no agency that's going to be perfect for me, and it's not worth all the energy takes. Because our energy so limited that we have to make these really careful choices. And in many ways, we don't have a choice. We had to take this risk because it was elevating our nervous systems too much to have someone else be in control of our safety.

FLINT DEL SOL: Yeah, the in control of our safety, I think, is a really big one. We both tried to get into helping professions, and then realized the professions like weren't helping us, right? They were specifically killing us in order to try to help other people. There's this, like, really horrifying saying that you'll see, like, stitched on pillows trying to be sold to teachers that say, like, to be a teacher means to be like a candle. You eat yourself to light the way for others. It's like, that is a horrifying thing to throw down in front of teachers, to say this is how you're going to be. And so, right? Like, Xilo was in the Peace Corps and I was in education. Both of us were in education, and we realized that these systems are not built for us, and they're not built to help kids that are like us. Queer kids, neurodivergent kids, right, are being underserved and the people who are dedicating their entire lives trying to make these systems work are getting burned out.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, both of those stories are such really great insights into the inner workings of, like, that final straw. And like you both said, there's many final straws, right? Then there's all these breaking points. And it's ridiculous when you're having to, like, navigate these systems that you're pretty aware are not designed to support our systems, to support our struggle areas, to even include support, to be affirming, to be inclusive.

And we're talking about education and mental health, which are, I think, if you ask most people, they'd be like, "Oh yeah, those fields are definitely those things." But in reality, they're so institutionalized, they're so ableist, they're so filled with misogyny, racism, transphobia, homophobia. There's so much discrimination. And it sucks to acknowledge that.

But I think what you said Xilo is really important, of like, we had to make this decision. Like, we have to do this thing in order to survive. And it's like kind of a mindfuck to be like, I have to take an enormous risk in order to survive and to remove myself from a "safety net or stability."

And Flint, you were mentioning that, saying that might be stitched on a million macro-made pillows all over the country, mental health is no different. Like, we are taught in grad school that you are in this field to like self-sacrifice, that you are supposed to, like, give yourself away in order to help and heal. And in return, what you get is like unbelievable amounts of burnout, really low pay, even if it's consistent and stable, discriminatory work practices, ableist work environments. Like, all the things that come with creating this intensified propensity for burnout, especially, autistic burnout.

And then, here we are like fast-forwarding, chronic health conditions start to kick in, suicidality starts to kick in, self-destructive behavior and self-sabotage starts to kick in in terms of relationships and substance use. It's really damaging. And I think it's so powerful to say I am going to just take this leap of faith because I have to trust that what I'm trying to create is worth so much more than the security. I'm just going to continue to use air quotes for those of you not watching and stability because it's all bullshit at the end of the day.

When I quit my agency job, I was like, "I think I can make the same amount of money bartending if I really needed to go back to that." And that's just the reality, which is really freaking sad.

FLINT DEL SOL: It really is. And like, you know, it hit me when you were saying that mental health has this same system, right? Where we're taught that we have to consume ourselves for other people, and that if we are not, right, if we are not burned out, or we're not feeling completely obliterated by this work, then we're not maybe doing it right or doing it enough. There is this weird feeling and teaching that the competition is, like, who slept the least, right? And who's spending the most number of hours in their classroom? Who's taking the most home with them?

But what's interesting is that, like, I found that one of the reasons I left teaching is that I became a worse and worse teacher the more I was not taking care of myself. And it's the same thing in mental health, right? Like, it wasn't until we took a lot of time to rest and focus on ourselves that we were able to help other people, right? It's not just selfish. It's not just I'm going to go into this in order to make more money or in order to help myself out. It's that I am better for other people when I have the space and the time to really care for myself.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, 100%, 100%. I think you're seeing that in so many professions. Like, I go to a doctor here in Asheville that's a part of a collective. I have really good health insurance. I'm really privileged in that way. My wife works for the government. But in reality, like, I needed someone who could take their time and who understood neurodivergence, especially, autistic ADHD bodies and systems because otherwise, it's just dismissal and invalidation. So, now, having someone who's rested, who can take their time, who isn't rushing you out the door, and this goes for any profession when we're talking about helping, or educating, or advocating for it makes such a difference. And I don't know your diagnosis and discovery stories. Were you all later in life diagnosed autistic? Or have you known for a long time?

FLINT DEL SOL: Well, we both, I know we were assigned female at birth, which means that nobody assumed we had anything [INDISCERNIBLE 00:22:57] on us for a very long time. Something was wrong, and we were like, "Oh, it's because we're trans." It's like, "Well."

XILO DEL SOL: Yeah, honestly, discovering that we're both ADHD and autistic had to kind of come after our gender transition because there was decades where we just felt like something wasn't right, right? For so many reasons and figuring out what our gender was and getting to transition medically and socially then created space to really understand how our brains function.

And you know, I've had a formal ADHD diagnosis for a few years. I didn't even know really what that meant, you know, until I started to learn on social media, honestly. And then, from there, go do my own research, you know? And people like you and Dr. Neff really paved way for us figuring out what works for us. And without that, we wouldn't have also the capacity and skills to manage it in a way that allows us to start a business.

FLINT DEL SOL: I want to speak to the diagnosis part of this too, because I know that people who are LCSWs and everyone else that have been, like, critical of social media diagnoses, right? Like, and I think there's definitely room for that. I hear you, and especially, for trans people, formal diagnosis carries something with it that it does not for cisgender people.

Like, Missouri right now is going through a system where they're trying to restrict trans people from being able to change their gender markers and their IDs. And that comes a year after the attorney general in that state tried to make sure that if you ever had an autism diagnosis, that you could not seek gender-affirming care.

And so, for us, having a medical history, having a record, we don't even know what it could be used for in the future. So, you end up in this awful situation where you're trying to figure out, like, is it worth being diagnosed formally so that I can learn more about myself and figure out how to adjust and live in this world? Or if I do that, is it possible that my own medical history is going to be used against me in a way that keeps me from being able to live like as my gender, which can be horribly dangerous, right? Like, if you saw this face, for everyone who can't see me, I'm very handsome. For anyone can't see this face, if you saw me right with a little F next to me on my driver's license, and you're pulling me over because you're a cop or you're a bartender, that puts me in a really dangerous situation.

And so, social media has played a huge role in doing what trans people have already been doing for decades, which is crowdsourcing our healthcare in order to take care of ourselves.

XILO DEL SOL: Yeah, healthcare is a whole another conversation. Yeah, talk about self-advocacy and I'm really resonating with you, Patrick, being able to find a doctor that has cared for themselves enough because so much of this work comes down from how much any provider is caring for themselves and giving them space to really be present to what's going on for you, and also, having the capacity to advocate for our needs as autistic ADHDers and trans men. Yeah, it's…

PATRICK CASALE: I want to unpack what you just said, Flint, because it's so powerful, so important. Like, I'm trying to get this mic closer, my wonky setup, trying to collect my thoughts too because I want to unpack some of what you said in general.

Self-diagnosis, right? We're in this era where people are coming out autistic ADHD more and more, and there's so much like, discrimination, ableist shit that happens, right? Like, "Oh, people are just looking for accommodations. People are just looking for benefits. They're just like seeking this out."

First of all, as three autistic ADHDers, I don't think you want this day-to-day of what it is like to exist in this brain and in this body. First of all, like, I would not go seek this out purposefully if I didn't have a choice to not do that. So, first and foremost, no one's fucking doing that.

Second of all, when we talk about social media diagnosis, it is powerful and it's valid. And I think that if we're going to support the neurodivergent affirming movement, and the neurodiversity affirming movement, self-determination is a huge component of this. So, that means however you choose to identify, however you got to that conclusion. And Megan and I talk about this on Divergent Conversations. And I'd say, as a clinical psychologist, she and I share similar viewpoints, but hers might be a little different than mine. And I think because she respects the diagnostic process so much, but there is that realization of like, it's not always a safe thing to pursue diagnosis or it's not accessible.

But the reality is, like, you watch a 30-second TikTok clip, and all of a sudden you're autistic. I always encourage people to, like, use that 30-second TikTok clip as like an entranceway. And then, maybe do some self-assessments, and then maybe do some exploration. And if it feels like the shoe fits, then wear it. And ultimately, I think that is all that matters. And I really wish that society in general did not care how we choose to identify. And we know that's just not the case. So, by openly stating this is who I am, these are my identities, that is advocacy at its purest form. So, both of you are doing that. And, you know, I know there's so much risk involved.

So, one that's that point. My brain's going to diverge somewhere else, which is typical at this stage of the day. But I really like that you named that because, you know, there's such a lack of accessibility even where I live in Asheville, which a lot of people in the country would be like, "Oh, that's one of the more liberal progressive places."

But if you were to say, "Where can I get an autism ADHD evaluation or assessment?" The options are not bountiful. And a lot of them are not affirming. And there's probably a 12 to 18-month wait for a lot of these people who are doing the assessments, especially, if they take insurance. Then you add in, like, the fact that diagnostic process, and assessment, and validation and all the affirming stuff that comes with identification and identity and parts work, assessment can be life-changing and life-saving, but you have to do it in a way that's safe enough to do so, right?

So, our medical system is so fucked up. I'm glad you all are doing the advocacy work that you're doing. I know that's not an easy task. I just think our identities and our values, right, as three later in life diagnosed autistic people, I think we had to create our own businesses. I think it's the only way to survive, like you said, Xilo. I think that, like, those of you listening or who identify as autistic ADHD are questioning your discovery process. So many entrepreneurs have to identify as one or the other, or if not both because, like, it's just the need for, like, controlling the environment, controlling the safety, controlling the communication, controlling the hours, like everything that comes with it. Yes, it's wonderful to have freedom, but it's so much more than that, like it is truly life-saving.

I could not work in a 9:00 to 5:00. I was killing myself in the crisis unit that I worked at. I was in, like, middle management, which is the worst place to fucking be, and I was pulling 80-hour work weeks. And it was non-stop. And to the point I ended up in the hospital. And you still try to convince yourself, "I can't leave, though. They need me. Like, my staff needs me, my clients need me." And you know how long they took to fucking replace me when I put my notice? My 90-day notice in one day.

FLINT DEL SOL: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: I was like, okay, this feels like dead man walking. I need to get out of here. This is unbearable. But the fear of the lack of safety net, and consistency, and routine, and structure, which all sounds counterintuitive now as an autistic person saying that out loud, was the stuff that kept me there. And Flint you mentioned, like, having to almost burn yourself out enough to then, eventually, say, now I can start my business. I'm finally burnt out enough where I get to leave.

FLINT DEL SOL: Yeah, it's hard, you know, having neurodivergent conversations because I had like nine things I wanted to say as you were talking, but it was also so good and important. I was so clicked into what you were saying that now it's like all gone. But who cares?

I think that, especially, right that point of I can't leave them, right? I can't leave them. And this is something, even as we're developing this business now, so much of it is we're already underselling ourselves. Well, can we make this free? Can we have some sort of mutual aid? Before we even had anything out the door, we're trying to figure out how to give more of ourselves away for free because we are built that way. We're built to want to help people, but right? You can't, you have to also survive.

And this was the thing I was faced with when I was leaving teaching right? Because I left teaching for a much darker reason that I left this nonprofit, right? I left it because I was a trans guy teaching in one of the reddest parts of southern California. And I was transitioning publicly, right? I was, the summer after getting top surgery or/and starting testosterone, very clearly and visibly changing the way that I looked and presented. And I was also, like, really openly queer. You know, I had the club in my classroom, and I had a library for students right at the beginning of the book-banning wave that came in 2022.

And I was very literally going to die in that classroom. Like, from someone else or something, right? Like, something was going to happen that was going to end my life. And I believed completely that that was going to happen. And I still couldn't walk away because there are like 40 queer kids in that school. The idea of leaving them by themselves, knowing that that void was going to get filled with someone who was not going to be as attentive, who wasn't going to be as knowledgeable, and that they were going to be by themselves, that was worse than anything I could think of. I would have rather died. And it was really impossible to choose to step away from that. And I think that, Xilo, you've had this experience in some ways too, right? Like, the idea of moving on, even for yourself, like you don't feel worth it enough to you sometimes.

XILO DEL SOL: Yeah, it's taken so much work and self-worth. You mentioned parts work earlier. I mean parts work, self-compassion, just learning how to prioritize ourselves and realizing that while it feels like if we leave, right, the really hopeful nonprofit or education space where we're actively helping people that those people will go without support, but we can't support anyone if we're not alive.

And I think that really came from not just, you know, hitting like a rock bottom of burnout, but from each other so much because it takes being so seen and loved, truly accepted, sometimes, especially, when you know you've got histories of the trauma of just being neurodivergent and ableist world, and the trauma of being, you know, unidentified, and unknowingly trans for a while you can just learn to abandon yourself so quickly. And it took us, like, really lifting each other up, which is, I think, what led me to this idea of empowerment coaching, of like, oh, we've seen, we have really seen each other, uplifting each other's strengths, letting each other rest, normalizing all the neurodivergent things has given us space to be able to really heal and regulate enough to be able to actually help others.

PATRICK CASALE: You all are dropping some powerful stuff. You're so right though. I mean, my wife's not here right now, but if she was I'd love to even have her jump on because, like, without her support and like, cheerleading, and lifting me up in the moments where you want to quit, or give up, or you don't feel worth it, it's always that person that's empowering you, that's like, "Hey, I've got your back. Like, I want you to at least try."

So many of us just don't even try. Like, the ideas stay ideas, and we think they're better suited for someone else, or we're not capable or competent enough to figure it out. And then, you start to realize, like, "But I can help other people do all of these things that I can't do for myself." So, it's just like, I think that's very human nature of us, especially, for those of us who have really harsh inner critics or trauma experiences like to really default into that mindset of, "I'm not worthy, I'm not good enough. It's not deserving."

And it's just like, I don't know. I think it's that pressure and that desire to continue to keep pushing forward through that mentality that has kept me going through a lot of this stuff. And I would say now that the self-doubt that I experience is still there pretty intensely, but it's no longer, like, driving the car anymore. It's like sitting in the passenger seat and like, I can acknowledge it. I can recognize when it's intensifying. And I also recognize that, like, one of you said this before, and I'm sorry I don't remember who, but you said you were in like, a place of anxiety and excitement and like, yeah, I think that's the indication that we're, like, on the exact right path that we need to be because if I didn't care about the stuff that I did, or created, or put out, or even started to conceptualize, I, as someone who need to be deeply in it and invested in it would never do any of it.

And I think that anytime I feel that intensified, like self-doubt, fear, impostor syndrome, whatever we want to call it, I'm like, "Okay, I think I need to pay attention to this, and I think I need to, like, walk through it, and pursue it, and not run from it anymore like I did for so much of my life."

FLINT DEL SOL: Yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, it feels so cliché, also, to say that, you know, I just needed someone who believed in me. But I kind of just needed someone who believed in me, right? Like, I had been the only one for so long that was believing that I could do the next thing, right? You said the idea is that, like, kind of live and die in your head. How many people with English degrees want to write a book and then they just talk about it all the time, and then you'll never take the steps to follow through with it?

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

FLINT DEL SOL: And now, right? My draft is due in November.

PATRICK CASALE: That's amazing.

FLINT DEL SOL: And you know, or, like, oh, we should quit our job. Like, the number of times I've heard we should just quit our jobs, and blank. And then, like, you know, it sometimes just takes having someone saying, like, no, I think we could actually quit our jobs. Like, I think we could actually do that. And if it doesn't work, right, and if we, like, totally fail, then we'll go into bartending, right? Or we'll sell T-shirts on the beach, which is, that was my mom's go-to when she moved to California. She goes, "I don't care what it takes, I will sell T-shirts on the beach if it means that I can be here and do the thing that I want to do, and sell them."

PATRICK CASALE: That's so powerful that that's the exact mentality you have to have to make this work, is like I am willing to do, basically, whatever it takes to continue to sustain this vision.

Because I know for so many people, including myself, when I first left my agency job, I don't know how many times I thought to myself, "I need to go back and reapply." Like, I couldn't handle the highs or the lows of owning my business. And there were a lot of lows. And it was just that constant process that, like, almost beats you down in a way where you're like, "Okay, I didn't have a cancelation process in place, and four clients just no showed me I'm not making any money for today." And now you're like, beating yourself up, like, clearly you don't know how to be a business owner. You don't have any training. This is not going to work. And you can really get into that, like, self-deprecating, self-sabotage mode.

But instead, I was like, "All right, sit here, sit with it, experience it, create the cancelation policy, ensuring that every damn client that sees you signs it the next time they come in, and you can pivot and adapt and evolve."

And I think for me, that's one of the most beautiful things about owning a business is the ability to pivot, and adapt, and evolve, and to pursue based on, like, an interest-based nervous system the things that light you up. Because I know I sent you a draft of my manuscript for my book that I'm writing. I wrote that in six hours, and like, I just felt it come over me, and I was like, "It's got to get out of my body." Because I had been sitting on it for so long. And now I have nine agents who are interested in picking it up. And I'm like, "This is not something I ever thought I could say." Right?

So, like, these are the things that start to happen, though, the more risk you take, the more you step out and, like, embrace your authentic sense of who you are. And I think that's a major, major pillar of what we're talking about.

FLINT DEL SOL: I'm going to fight you physically. I got the mic. This is the thing. You interview two people who are both excited about something, and I think this point of like, you know, I can't be a business owner, right? Or like, you know, I must not know what I'm doing weirdly translates so well to us as chicken fathers. We have 13 chickens. And when we got them, right? We are not rural people. Well, we are now because we are living rurally. But we have never been. We don't have chicken backgrounds. And every single time I thought, you know, as we were raising this flock and finding weaknesses in our system, like, okay, like they can't eat that, they keep escaping here, right? We lost a baby. It was a horrible thing to lose a baby chicken really early. And I was like, you know what? Medieval peasants did this, right? People with no formal education, people in every country in the world are keeping chickens alive. They can do it. I can do it.

It's the same thing with a book, right? Every time I pick up a book and I'm like, "This book is terrible." And somebody found a publisher and published it and finished it, right? Like, people who are no good at writing can finish books. People who don't know what they're doing with chickens can raise chickens. And there are so many, like, deeply incompetent people that somehow have successful businesses.

And I'm like, "Okay, if people that I do not respect at all can figure this out, then definitely I can. I just have to really be okay with failing. Be okay not knowing what I'm doing right out of the gate, knowing that it's going to change, right? We can't possibly have every system in place right at the beginning." Having a lot of grace for ourselves. Because if that's one thing that incompetent people have in common, it's the ability to believe in themselves.

Yeah, and you mentioned a couple things that really took letting go of, in a lot of ways, the perfectionism, and control, and accepting that, like, there's stuff we just don't know, and you know, we're learners, and researchers, but it's going to take accepting our own failures.

And something Patrick was saying, like when you said six hours for your book, honestly, what makes owning a business so empowering to us is the ability to live in our natural cycles. And we didn't even know what our natural cycles were until we took extensive periods of time off work because we forced ourselves into 9:00 to 5:00s for so long and it took so much deconditioning of both ableism and capitalism to realize, "Oh, like, it's okay to let myself lean into this energy I'm feeling right now to produce something for, you know, 12 hours straight." Or whatever it is, that, like, just excites you and gets you going, and then know how to manage what your body needs during that time, how to recover from it, to allow, you know, just the kind of natural ebbs and flows that are possible when you, you know, are managing yourself and learning what that is. And it's always going to be changing, except you'll always be changing too.

PATRICK CASALE: Damn. I feel like we could talk for like two more hours right now [CROSSTALK 00:45:48]-

FLINT DEL SOL: By the way, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: Because [CROSSTALK 00:45:49]-

FLINT DEL SOL: …here's an hour or two of this podcast.

PATRICK CASALE: My transcription person and my editing person may hate me, and my voice, but we both just made such good points, and I'm trying to hold on to both of them so I can respond to them.

So, Flint, you mentioned like the chicken farming, "I didn't know what I was doing." Right? You've read books where you're like, "This is terrible but it got published." So, often people are successful because they just do it. Like, they stop telling themselves that they can't. And they just figure out a way to make it happen. And so, often these terrible books were published by terrible authors, and you may have a much better version of the same book in your head, but you just cannot get past the fear of putting it into the world, and it will never take up space nor exist. And that makes me so freaking sad.

And you also said, like, "I didn't have someone to empower me." That's a huge statement, by the way because I can totally relate. I think so many of us can where it's like, until you finally find that person you don't even trust it at first, you have to do a lot of your own work to be like, is this something I can trust? Is this real? But like, super, super important. So, love that.

Okay, switching to you, Xilo, you said, I'm trying to… man, my executive functioning and my divergence is like taking over in terms of my thinking, but I'm thinking about, like, what you're saying in terms of having that freedom, right? Like, having that autonomy, and for me and following that season that's really important.

I used to beat the shit out of myself when I first started my business for not working all the time. And I see so many therapists who start practices, and that's what I used to do, but now it bores me, so I don't do it anymore. So, if you're listening, I don't do practice coaching, who would recreate their agency job environment? They recreate like 40 to 50-hour work weeks.

And I was like, "What is the point of creating your own business if you're going to work yourself to death and burn yourself out even more, and you're the only person to blame now at this point." So, and I get it for those who, like, are sole providers, who have kiddos, who have, like, other responsibilities, like, sometimes there's necessitation, but in reality, like, freedom, time, the ability to say, like, I'm paying attention to my energy.

I had two major throat surgeries in the last couple of years, and the last one impacted my vocal cords pretty badly, and my capacity has greatly diminished to be public-facing. And at first, I was grief-ridden. I still think I am, to some degree, but not nearly as badly. But then, I started to pay attention to, like, my energy cycles, and pay attention to where I really wanted to put my energy when it came up for me because I was having such a hard time even accessing energy or creativity. And then, once I started feeling that burst or that spark again, following that gut instinct, if Cindy Miller's listening to this, she always tells me about how I need to follow my sacral energy and doing my human design rigs.

XILO DEL SOL: It's the woo-woo hour.

FLINT DEL SOL: I'm like, yeah, we could go for another hour [CROSSTALK 00:48:58]-

PATRICK CASALE: It's totally not my jam. But everything she did in my human design reading was, like, spot on in terms of being a generator and how my energy shows up. So, like, I'm trying really hard to just pay attention to those cycles of energy, instead of trying to force it, instead of trying to tell myself like, "You should be doing this, you should be working, you have all this free time."

Because that's what happens at first. You see that in your calendar, and you do have to grind a little more at first, I think, when you're starting, when you're launching. However, it should be in a way that meets your needs and, like, supports your system. And I think that's really an important piece, is like the seasonal portion of this. Like, following that energy, it's going to shift, it's going to evolve. You're going to have to cultivate it again. Sometimes it's going to overgrow. Like, it's going to be like a garden in a way. And you're going to have to really take care of it and pay attention to it. And I think the intentionality is huge. And I think that when we find these, like, values-aligned ideas, and business ideas, and creative processes, especially, as autistic ADHDers, pursue the shit out of it, like pursue the things that you find are really aligned with your values, and life will feel so much more fulfilling in that way.

FLINT DEL SOL: Absolutely, the seasonality, right? Like, weirdly this is so in line with content creation, right? Like, on making stuff for the internet, which is something I've been doing for like three years now, since I started transitioning. And it's just so perfect because it has immediate feedback that tells you that if you're trying to make something when you're not feeling it, other people know. They know when something is being made inauthentically, just for views. And those things don't do well.

Anytime I've ever grown considerably as a content creator has been when I'm saying something almost immediately off the cuff, when I was feeling it in that moment and using it as a way to process a thought. Absolutely, my millions of views videos are the ones that are the most authentic. And I honestly will defend social media until the end of my life, probably, as much as it's hurt me personally, right? Like, I'll keep going back to her because it really does reward authenticity in the right circles, right? If your algorithm is attuned to that kind of work then that's what you're going to get.

And there are days, right, or weeks, or, you know, after I left teaching where I just didn't make stuff, didn't make stuff for a long time, and then when I was feeling it again, I started making again, and they were there, right? The audience was there and the community was there. And right, the trust that you can go and come back and it's going to be okay.

And when you try to push it, and you try to just work through it, it's why I really don't do that much sponsored content like that. That could be my job, right? I could just do sponsored content. There's a ton of money there, but it would absolutely degrade the authenticity of my platform to do it as often some other creators do because they can tell, right? People who are watching what you're making absolutely know when you're speaking from a real place of authenticity.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. Couldn't say it better myself. I think that if you're an autistic ADHDer content creator, if you're a part of the queer community, if you're part of the BIPOC community, authenticity is really fucking important. And people see through it, right? So, like, following your energy, being intentional, being authentic, and I agree, I think the sponsored content makes me cringe in a lot of ways. Like, of course, I want to say yes to opportunities, but also, have to be really intentional about who we say yes to.

That even happens with, like, Divergent Conversations, you know? Like, we have so many subscribers, and followers, and downloads, and we cannot get that podcast sponsored yet, we have had people approach us who, like, we just would never say yes to because I cannot sell out to some of the online mental health therapy things that exist in this world, or things I can't say out loud, so I won't get cease and desist letters sent to my house, like so many of my colleagues. But in reality, like, I think that is super important too.

And again, going back to, like, just our values and what we really anchor into really ensures that we are on a pathway that's going to feel really genuine to us, and really connected. And I think that's really important as well.

XILO DEL SOL: Yeah, and we've been shocked time and time again when we do that all of a sudden, energy opens up the more we're authentic. We're like, "Whoa. I didn't know I had all this energy in me because I've created space by not masking anymore, right? Not pushing [CROSSTALK 00:53:31]"

PATRICK CASALE: Exactly.

XILO DEL SOL: And by trusting myself because it takes so much energy to overcome the insecurities, and the fears, and messaging that, you know, it's not okay to be that way. And it'll be forever that we're working on that. But being in communities like this, with like-minded entrepreneurs and neurodivergent entrepreneurs is so important because we'll forget, like, as much as we have a list of all the things we've hated about every job we've done, we're like, "Okay, don't do those things." Like, it's going to sneak back in because we get the messaging constantly.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure.

XILO DEL SOL: This community is so important to us for that accountability of like, maybe you're feeling this way because you, like, strayed from your original plan of being really authentic, and flexible, and not working too much. And that's so important, those reminders. And that's so much of what this podcast has provided for us.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, really appreciate you guys supporting. Like, I think you DMed me initially, Flint. Like, "Oh, my partner watches your stuff." And I was like, "Okay, cool." I didn't know who you were. I had clicked on your profiles, like, "Oh, this looks pretty cool." Start following you. It's just fascinating how stuff like that can happen, and then staying in, like, communication and connecting that way. So, really cool to get to know both of you, and really cool to see you start to, like, really dive into this business together.

And I wish you nothing but success and good luck on this venture. I want to support you however we can. And at some point in time, have you on Divergent Conversations, too. We're doing, like, collections and series now, which Megan really loves. And right now, we're in the thick of OCD series. But I would love to actually tell the story of exactly what we just did because I think it's so valuable to the neurodiversion community and the queer community.

So, again, thank you for, you know, just shooting your shot, and being like, "Can we come on the podcast in a way." Or like, "We listen to the podcast. I think that's awesome." And I want to definitely stay connected. I'm excited to read your book. I'm excited to follow all of your journeys. And your chicken videos are hilariously amazing, so I love those too.

XILO DEL SOL: Thank you. Yeah, it's wonderful. And, of course, anytime you want us to come anywhere and speak into a microphone, we could just take one to Applebee's and we could just hang out. It doesn't have to be plugged into anything. Yeah, we're here to-

PATRICK CASALE: That was my first restaurant job was in Applebee's in Plattsburgh, New York while I was in college. And it was a shit show, as you can imagine.

XILO DEL SOL: I believe that. Yeah, we're excited. We love the idea of relationships being based in podcasts like autistic brains like, "Oh, what if our friends would just, like, schedule podcast conversations." Or like, Ooh, this is a fun way to interact with other people in our world. It's people that, like, you know, rarely ever leave the house, interact with other people. Like, ooh [CROSSTALK 00:56:15]. Love it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. I tried to count the other day, like, how many times this week did I leave the house? Because my wife has this, like, we have this kind of understanding where she'll come home, the curtains will be closed, everything will be dark. I'll probably be watching like Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings. I don't know. And she'll be like, "Oh, it's one of those days you're not speaking today." And I'll be like, "Yeah." She's like, "Did you leave the house?" And I'm like, "No." She's like, "Do you know the last time you've left the house?" I'm like, "I think it was like Thursday." She's like, "Today is Thursday." I'm like, "Oh shit." Well, and I have absolutely no idea, so…

XILO DEL SOL: Relatable.

FLINT DEL SOL: Hard.

PATRICK CASALE: Can you tell the audience where they can find your new venture and everything that you've got going on, and we will link it to the show notes too so that everyone has easy access to everything that Flint and Xilo just talked about, and all of the things that they are working on together.

FLINT DEL SOL: Absolutely. So, you can find us at delsolcoaching.com. That's our new, beautiful website where we have services in coaching, personal coaching, executive coaching, consultation. We also do workshops and speaking opportunities. And then, you can find us both on Instagram. I'm @justflintisfine. And Xilo is @xilodelsol X-I-L-O as is the normal spelling, and that's where we are.

PATRICK CASALE: Really cool. Thank you both for coming on and just congrats on everything that you're working towards and creating. It's really cool to see and stay in touch, for sure.

FLINT DEL SOL: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Patrick.

XILO DEL SOL: Thanks, Patrick, so nice to get to talk with you and meet you.

PATRICK CASALE: You're very welcome. To everyone listening to All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. And we'll see you next week.