Episode 158: International Retreats for Therapists—More Than Just a Vacation [featuring Melissa Wesner]

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. You're listening to another episode of All Things Private Practice podcast. I'm your host. Patrick Casale. I'm joined today by Melissa Wesner, who is an LCPC, the founder of Life Spring Counseling Services, a group practice in Baltimore, Maryland. She is also the host of The Dreaming and Doing podcast, an international retreat host and planner, and [INDISCERNIBLE 00:01:19] for her office and local clinician community membership that she membership that she runs. She's also a brain-spotting consultant.

So, Melissa, great to have you on. And I'm excited for this conversation. Like, we talk about retreats a lot on here. But your journey is a cool one and how you got started is a fascinating story. And I will just say this, like, very transparently. I don't know how I came across your social media a couple of years ago. I think I told you this when I was on your podcast, but I saw that you were going down to Mexico. You were taking clinicians down there for a retreat. And I was like, "That's so cool. Like, that's exactly what I want to be doing."

I didn't know you. I didn't know anything about you. I just kind of left it at that. And I was just like, "Well, that sounds like a cool thing. That's probably not something I could ever do or accomplish." But nevertheless, just want to share that with you because it was really cool to witness and just show that we could do so much in this profession. So, thanks for coming on.

MELISSA WESNER: Yes. Thanks for having me, Patrick. And honestly, when you shared that with me, when we recorded the podcast episode on my podcast, I had no idea. Like, I had no idea that you had seen anything that I was doing. But honestly, I was just, like, smiling all day after you told me that. I was telling my partner, I was like, "I can't believe that." I had no idea. I don't know. So, you have no idea, like, how good I felt after you told me that. But also, because I remember when you started launching your program I was like, "That is so cool. I would totally do that."

And I remember when you launched, you know, we were just kind of in a weird place in life. We had just moved states for my husband's job, and so I was like, "We're just not there right now." You know? But it really had me reflecting after our conversation about how inspiration inspires more inspiration, right? Like you saw what I was doing and you were like, "That's really cool." I then saw what you were doing, and I'm like, "That's so cool." Right? And we had no idea that we were both feeling inspired by the work that we were each doing.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's interesting how that happens. I think more often than not we so often, like, default into comparison traps where we're like, "Oh, someone's doing this thing that I really want to be doing. I'm either jealous, or envious, or I can't do what they're doing."

I like to just think, like, we all have so many different unique strengths, and gifts, and personalities that, like, your retreats probably are not going to be the same as my retreats, and we're going to have different ways of approaching them. And I think that's what's really beautiful in this era right now that we're seeing with more entrepreneurial mental health professionals.

Do you want to share a little bit about how this got started for you and kind of take us along your journey a little bit?

MELISSA WESNER: Sure. So, my husband is from Mexico. And so, my in laws and my extended family all still live there. So, we would, of course, go to Mexico to visit my in laws, to visit my family. They cannot come here and visit us in the United States, unfortunately. So, if we're going to see family, we have to go to Mexico.

And I tend to be a daydreamer, in general. So, while we were, like, out and about walking in his town I would be daydreaming. And I'm like, wouldn't that be so cool? Like, if we could have a business one day where we could just bring groups of people, or even families who want a different travel experience, one that's authentic, kind of off the beaten path, wouldn't that be so cool if we could bring them here? And I would be daydreaming about the logistics. Like, how are we going to get them from the airport to this little town? It's three and a half hours away, and my wheels would be going.

But at the time, like, it was clear that this was just a fun idea that, like, would be for, like, one day, way, way, way, way, way down the road.

And then, our political climate started changing, and there was a certain person in power who had lots of things to say about Mexico and Mexicans. And it just lit a fire under me. And I was really mad. And so, I just had this moment where I was like, "That's how we're going to Mexico. That is exactly how we're taking people there. We are going to take people to Mexico so they can see it for themselves, so they can go, they can directly experience it, and they can meet people who are in Mexico." Because at the time, people were hearing things like, "Mexicans, they're rapists, and they're criminals, and they're drug dealers and you know."

So, I had lots of feelings about that, so I was like, "We're going to take people there." So, I also do some mindfulness work at my practice. And so, I started thinking about how these mindfulness concepts can also connect to immersive experiences, thinking about people going and directly experiencing rather than, right, like thinking about a place, thinking about a group of people. Like we're going to go and we're going to directly experience and see what that is like.

And so, that's how we got started. I was mad, and I was like, "We're going to go and we're going to give people an experience." And even just getting that started was a really interesting experience to see how people responded to that, including boards.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I love that story because it's a good representation about, like, why travel is so important. Because if we only stay within our bubble, I know so many people who have just never left, like, their town or their state, or just have not had the opportunity to travel internationally, or abroad, or immerse themselves in culture. And as mental health professionals, right? We should be striving for cultural competency, and that goes so much further than just, like, taking one course in grad school, and being like-

MELISSA WESNER: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: …culturally competent therapists. It's like, No, you're absolutely not, especially, when our profession is dominated by people who are white. So, we have to be really conscientious about how we move through this world.

And for me, that's the epitome of travel. It's like getting out of your comfort zone, talking to other people from different walks of life, recognizing that most people have all of the same things in common, like with what we want out of our lives, and it's connection, community, experiences. And I think that's what travel does for us. So, I love that that's kind of what lit the fire for you in terms of this is how we get this started.

And you're right, the boards also don't enjoy the whole like, "We're going to offer CEUs to go on destinations." Because I think they think, like, this is not traditional, this is too fun. Are you really learning anything? And I would argue all day long because I myself have, unfortunately, been front and center for some NBC audits this year.

And I'm like, "I just think you don't enjoy the fact that I'm taking people to like Spain and Ireland and Italy." It's like we're not doing a training at a Sheraton." [CROSSTALK 00:08:25] like I think you learn so much more when you are stepping out of your comfort zone about yourself, your business, your goals, your vision because you're forced to be a little uncomfortable, and you're also forced to kind of step into that place of being extremely mindful and conscientious of like, "Hey, here's my day to day. This is my surroundings. These are the people I'm meeting." Like, that makes us better human beings, in my opinion.

MELISSA WESNER: Yeah, and such a pain. And I wish that my challenge with the board was only about the location, but they wanted to argue with me about why cultural awareness was necessary for social workers. And I was like, "Oh my gosh. Like, you are the social work board. Have you ever read the NASW code of ethics?"

And so, I literally had to argue with the Maryland Board of Social Work. Now, the counseling board in Maryland, they were absolutely fantastic, so kudos to the Maryland Counseling Board. But the board of social work in Maryland, that was the question that they repeatedly asked me, "Well, what does cultural awareness have to…" And this is 2018, 2019, when we did our trips. And they were asking me, like, "What does cultural awareness have to do with social work?"

And we see that there's a lot of time for reflection, for people to reflect on their own culture, and their own values, and their own world of view. Why are they doing that? Like, why aren't we talking about the clients? And so, that was the question. And also, why does this have to happen in Mexico?

And they asked me that repeatedly. And I said, "Well, does the board have an issue with it being in Mexico?" And they were like, "Oh, no, no, no, no. We have social workers who are everywhere. That's not a problem. But why does it have to be there?" Right?

Again, to your point, you know the reality is that if you have one cultural competence class in college and you're surrounded by people who look like you, they all speak the same language, you are in your comfort zone. It's a very different experience to remove yourself from a classroom into a setting that is completely not what you're familiar with, surrounded by a language that is not your own, but you still have to try to communicate you're eating foods that are not your own. You start, one, learning about the people in the place that you're in, but also you start learning about yourself as well in that process.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. I bet if you had said the event was going to be in Bethesda it [CROSSTALK 00:11:02] approved. No problems here.

MELISSA WESNER: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: But yeah, it's just like one of those things that we really get wrong in the mental health community a lot of the time. And I think it's so important to just, again, cultural immersion is so, so important because we don't know what we don't know. And if we're only, like, sucked into social media, or you're just watching a lot of the news, which I just don't do, but like, if you're hearing this narrative a lot of the time about certain groups of people, which then informs your decisions about how you move forward and move through the world, and you're judging people based on the color of their skin, their identities, how they move through the world, how they experience life. And then, all of a sudden, it's like your world becomes so small and everything feels unsafe then. And the more you push yourself out of that comfort zone to travel, especially, internationally, the more likely it is you start to develop a very different worldview.

And we're not talking about, like, going to an all-inclusive resort in Cabo. It's very different from like going and immersing yourself in a very small, authentic Mexican village, right? And to end to each their own, like, that's still traveling, that's still okay. I don't want to knock that. But it's also the reality of like, you learn so much more when you eat people's food, when you go and support local community businesses, like small businesses. We are all small business owners, so like when we host retreats, I always look for the off-the-beaten-path location to travel like a tourist. So, I want to get into, like, the small towns, the small villages. I don't want to go to big cities. I don't want to go to Ireland and go to Dublin. Like, that doesn't feel Irish to me. It doesn't [INDISCERNIBLE 00:12:48].

So, to be able to go into Ireland, to Spain, to Italy, to Greece, to these places that I'm going, I'm always looking for, like, how can I make this experience unique? Because my goal before COVID was to start a travel coaching business where I just helped helpers step away and immerse themselves in culture. That was it. It was like I want to help them actually put the phones down, actually stop responding to emails, actually stop feeling like they have to put out fires all the time. And then, COVID happened and I pivoted.

But ultimately, like that was always the goal was to go into the local places, the places where, like, when we go to Ireland, we go to this village called Ferns. If you ask the most Irish people, they'd be like, "Why the hell are you going there?" Or like, "Where is that?" That's my type of place. I recognize that's not for everybody, but I also think that it allows for you to build relationships with people in a way that you would never get to in, like, if we were doing an event double in Ireland, or in a Marriott hotel, or something like that.

MELISSA WESNER: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And you know, that can be really scary for people the first time, you know. And it's been interesting, also, to see how some of this has evolved, just as our, like, culture and political climate shifts as well. I think when I first started offering the retreats or the workshops in Mexico, there were some people who were like, "That's so cool. I'm really interested." Especially, like younger individuals, college, or just younger individuals were like, "That's so cool." But also, there was a sense, like unspoken sense of people being like, "Well, do I really need cultural competence or cultural awareness stuff? You know, I had that class. Like, is that really going to help me in my business, in my practice." There was kind of that sense at the time.

And so, it was really interesting to see as things shifted, and as things started happening in our communities, and thinking about George Floyd and Black Lives Matter, like suddenly everyone was like, "Yes, this is so important." And then, people would start asking about my workshops in Mexico again.

And I'm thinking, it was always important. It was always important, you know. So, it's just been interesting to see the shifts that have occurred as people gain awareness and as things, including unfortunate things, happen that we're seeing on the news, how people feel about things.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think, you know, and it's also going back to your point about, like, what does going to Mexico have to do with like the social work board? I think that you know I moderate a larger Facebook group for therapists, and we've got about 12,000 people in there, and I will often post about stuff that's happening, social, justice-oriented from a lens of that perspective, or what's happening in the world.

And you'll get people who are like, "I didn't join this group for this to be political. And what does this have to do with the helping profession?" And it's like, you can't really separate the two. You actually can't. You have to really be okay understanding that politics impact our most vulnerable people, especially, people of marginalized communities are going to be the most impacted by a lot of the stuff that's happening.

So, if we are just saying, "I'm going to remove myself from this, I'm not going to talk about it." It's a very privileged perspective to say like, this doesn't really impact me. So, I don't see the importance of talking about it or discussing it at length.

MELISSA WESNER: Yeah, and it reminds me of the conversation I had with someone from the board. They were like, "Well, you know, not all social workers work with immigrants." Well, like not everyone works with clients who have ADHD, but we still offer trainings on that topic.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. So, it's relevant as hell. So glad that you started doing that. I love the origin story for that. Tell us about, like, since that time, how that's been going, what's that transformed into? What have you learned along the way? Because I know with each retreat I do, I learn things. I definitely make mistakes that I don't want to replicate going forward. So, yeah, tell us a little bit about that, too.

MELISSA WESNER: Yeah. Oh, that's so fun. So, after the workshops at Mexico, I just kind of like let it later as one because of the pandemic. Also, my life kind of took a weird turn. My partner took a job up in Massachusetts, which forced us to relocate, and I had to manage my group practice remotely, which was before the pandemic, nobody was doing that. So, like, that was a huge stress in my life at the time, so just kind of let that go.

But then, you know, I had been on a number of retreats myself over the last year, like for coaching programs. And I remember one day I was there on a retreat, and like, we're in the beach. And I was like, "Oh, wow. Like, I would just love to be doing this myself. Like, I would love to be hosting retreats." And so, I was like, "Well, okay, well, let's go ahead and do that again."

So, on one hand, I really love authentic experiences. On the other hand, I've recently had some very nice opportunities, like luxury experiences on retreats, and I'm like, I really like this too.

And so, currently, you know, as an entrepreneur, there are just times where I'm so tired. Like, the idea of planning a really authentic experience, as I was saying to you the last time we spoke, like, you know, I don't know if people realize how much work goes into what you're doing to plan a retreat in a place that's remote and truly authentic. There are so many logistics that have to be worked out, right? And so, for me, I love that kind of travel.

And also, sometimes I don't have the energy. Like, I don't have the energy to do that. And so, I also really enjoy just going away. And book my flight, I book the place that I'm saying at, and everything else is taken care of. And so, this time around, I'm offering retreats to entrepreneurs and leaders where everything is taken care of, you just show up and it's going to be a real nice time, where you feel pampered and cared for, and you can just relax and be like, "Wow, this is so nice." Like, all my hard work for this moment.

But there have certainly been lessons along the way, different ones. I'm glad for the contract that I had the first time I had the retreat before the… Well, in Mexico, the workshop, I had someone who had to back out. They were like, "I'm burned out. I can't go." So, I was like, "I'm so glad we have some things in our contract about refunds." One of the trips someone went home. They were struggling with, like, the cultural experience that was new to them. They went home, and again, I was like, "I'm so glad we have our contract the way that we have our contract."

You know, there are other experiences. On our second trip, we'd hiked this huge mountain in the town, like the town that we were in. It's like a thing. Like, we climbed the mountain? Like, you know, like, that's like the true test of being in the town. And I thought we're going to take like a four-hour hike of this huge mountain. We were there for like eight. And somehow these people didn't hate me afterwards. We joked about it. It was a great experience. We have great pictures. But those are some lessons.

And also, now that I'm pivoting to kind of a different audience and a different type of retreat, one of the hard lessons I'm learning now, and I don't like hard lessons, let me just say that. I'm an oldest child. I'm the person who, like, will read the books, attend the training because that's how I want to learn. Like, I want to learn the safe way. I'm not the person who's like, "I'm going to do what I want. Let me learn the hard way from life." Like, there are people like that. I'm not that person. So, when I have to learn a hard lesson I'm like, I don't enjoy this.

But I think one of the things I'm learning now is I have a bazillion ideas, but build the audience first, build your audience before the offer.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I'll reiterate that 10 times out of 10 because I myself host retreats, specifically, to help people host retreats. I [CROSSTALK 00:24:14] that from day one. Like, you could have the best idea in the world. If you don't have anyone to market it to, it's going to fall flat, and that is going to lead to depression, frustration, anger, resentment. You potentially may give up on your idea before it's too soon to do so. So, I say that all the time. You have to have the audience.

I'm glad you mentioned, like, pampered versus [INDISCERNIBLE 00:24:41]. And that's so true. Like, I do all the real local experiences. And sometimes I wish my personality could just be like, "Well, you just pull up to like a five-star hotel and just let it be done." And I'm like, "No, I have to do it all."

But when you start going into these remote locations, you've got like one transportation option, right? Like [CROSSTALK 00:24:59] someone's uncle who drives a bus, and that's [CROSSTALK 00:25:06]-

MELISSA WESNER: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: Or like, your food options become much more limited.

MELISSA WESNER: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: Because we have two restaurants in this town and that's what we have. So, they can become logistical nightmares because you are literally having to piece together all of these different things. So, totally on board with that.

I'm thinking about the summit that my friend Jennifer and I are co-hosting in Italy, and how much logistical hell goes into planning an event [INDISCERNIBLE 00:25:33] going to be so freaking cool because it's like we rented an entire medieval Italian village, but it's also four hours from anything.

MELISSA WESNER: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: So, like, everything becomes challenging. Everything becomes expensive. Like, to get 100 people from Rome to this village is a fortune, to pay for dinners for 100 people, and lunches, and breakfasts, and activities, it's a fortune.

So, it's just like, I think on the outside looking in, it can be, "Look at all the money this person's making." And it's like, there's not that. At the end of the day, yes, there's a profit. But it's also significantly less than if I was just like, "Hey, we're going to go to this nice hotel. Everyone's going to book their own rooms, and I'm going to include some business coaching and maybe a meal or two." So, it's just about figuring out what works best for personalities, too.

MELISSA WESNER: Yeah, yeah. So, it is a lot of work, you know, which is nice for people who don't want to do the logistics to be like, "You know what? Patrick, he's willing to do that work, and I'm just going to show up."

PATRICK CASALE: Yes, it feels like wedding planning. But here's the thing, I'm a planner. I'm good at it. I planned most of my wife and our wedding. These events can feel like five-day weddings, like, because you're planning so much. So, then that's that goes into price points to like, when you're thinking about pricing your events, if you're listening and you want to host events, you have to think about that. Like, how much time am I actually spending planning? How much time goes into recon before the trip? How much time am I going to have to take afterwards to recharge and disconnect?

Because for me, it will take me about a month to recover from a four to five-day event because of the sensory load, because of the overstimulation, because it will just take so much energy from me. That means there's a month where I'm basically like, I can't do much of anything. So, you have to take this stuff into consideration when you're, you know, planning your price points, too. And the numbers don't have emotions. You just have to let the numbers be the numbers and [CROSSTALK 00:27:41]. And not sell yourself short because I see so many people hosting events that are like Black Friday sale. You know, we have four spots to sell, so we're going to give everyone $500 off if you sign up today. It's like, please don't do that to yourself.

Like, one if you have any guests who pre-purchased as soon as the sales page went up, they're going to get very angry with you and resentful. Like, how come I didn't get this deal? And also, it just continues to discount your labor that's really going into these big events that take up so much time and energy.

MELISSA WESNER: Yeah, they are a lot of work, you know. And I think, you know, I imagine you too, right? Like, I think that there's so much value from retreats. And I know that for myself, like I do love planning, and I love organizing, and I love the experiences that happen. And at least in my experience, one of the things that I think, you know, is so special about retreats is, I think that there are incubators for relationships, right? Like, when you're traveling with someone, and you're spending extended time together, and you're having these really unique experiences, there's just a bonding that happens. Like, people that were on both of our workshops, we're still in touch to this day. Two of them work at my office. Two of them are in a membership community that I run where I host fun events for therapists. So, we are still in touch.

And so, you know, I think about people who work in industries that are not ours, right? Like, we think about, like, older men who are, like, on the golf course doing business deals, right? Like, that's not a thing that we do in the therapy world. But there is truth to the fact that when you're spending extended time with people, you really get to know them. And so, at least as counselors, or even if like the retreats that I'm hosting where it's open to entrepreneurs in different fields, where you have some cross-pollination of ideas, and we still need people who do marketing, or social media or, you know, whatever, but when you hang out with someone for a long period of time, you're like, "You know, I know this lady named Marshall. Like, she is really cool. She's really great at what she does." You know, you feel more comfortable working with people when you know them.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I always look at our events as like intimate incubators because, for the most part, most of my stuff is like between 20 and 25 people. And you're there for five days together. And travel is messy. Like INDISCERNIBLE 00:30:08] your best self during travel.

MELISSA WESNER: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:30:10] just run down. Sometimes you're just like, "I need a break." But ultimately, what happens is you start to see this like positive, transformative energy, and it's contagious. And someone's like, "I'm going to do this hard thing."

Sometimes people will be like, "This is the first time I've ever left the country. This is the first time I've ever traveled solo." It's contagious stuff because you're stepping out of your comfort zone, you're taking a risk, you're kind of putting your ideas out to the world, and you're working towards them. And all of a sudden, you have like friends for life.

Some of our events have led to, like, I removed myself from all of them because I hate all the group messages, but like, WhatsApp chats and group Facebook chats of people who are, like, traveling the world together after meeting at our events. Like, they're like, "Hey, we're going to this country. Hey, we're going to go visit so and so in this state, and like, go hang out for a couple of days."

And it's like, this is really freaking cool. And that's really what this is about for me, is like how as entrepreneurs. I think we see a need and we create it. Or we see something that we need ourselves, and then we create it. And for me, that's what this has been about, is like community, travel, connection, and then, just helping step out of our comfort zones and just experience life differently.

MELISSA WESNER: Yeah, and I think that that's the thing. My sense is sometimes that people are like, "Well, what am I going to get out of this in terms of maybe like content?" And that's important. But I really do think that the relationships are the most important part, even though people don't realize that in the beginning, right? But at the end, that's what people are going to remember, those are the connections that are going to be sustained.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I agree, 100%. I can make the best sales page in the world and have the best itinerary, and people can get there, and then be like, "I don't actually want to go to any of this. I actually just want to experience the area." And then, you'll have people, like, go do their own thing sometimes because that's just the reality. And we get so caught up in the content, like, and the process. And in reality, it's like more of the act of just being. And that is really where the powerful transformations take place is in the act of being and being, sometimes uncomfortable, sometimes vulnerable, but ultimately, doing it together. I think that creates this, like, cohesive… We had this saying over and over in Ireland, the first year that I did it, iron sharpens iron. And it was just this mentality of, like, all the people here are trying to do these things that feel scary to them, but they're putting it out to each other. They're supporting each other, and the energy is just contagious.

So, I think these are really cool opportunities that we're starting to see in our profession. And just glad to know, like, that we can highlight that therapy doesn't have to look one way. You get your license. You don't just have to do one-on-one therapy for the rest of your life. Like, there are options here. So, I really like highlighting that too.

MELISSA WESNER: Yeah, and even with what you're saying about being, right? Like, how often have we talked about that in a therapy session where we're working with clients about being rather than doing, you know? And even though we know all of these things as therapists, sometimes we need that support to do that for ourselves, to go away and be, right?

And I was thinking about that as I'm getting ready for my own retreat, where we're going to be looking at wellness, burnout prevention, but also, looking at how your well-being as a business owner is part of business strategy, which is maybe contrary to the hustle, and grind, and hard work ethic messages that so many of us have received growing up, that actually taking care of yourself, you know, is part of business strategy, and can benefit your business, and it brings energy to your business, to your clients, to your team.

And even though we know all of these things, like we know about hydration, and eating well, and getting proper rest, and moving your body, like we know these things. Like, we talk about them all day long till we're blue in the face. But to actually give ourselves permission to do them, and then, to experientially see, how does my body feel when I'm nourishing it in all of these ways, and when I'm in nature, and I'm, you know, eating well, and I have community? Like, what does that feel like in an embodied way rather than just like telling other people, like, these are all good things that you could do to feel better.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I mean, so often we find ourselves in this profession, in a practice what we preach scenario where we don't actually do that. So, I think that's spot on. But, yeah, this is cool to see, and really glad we've connected over the last couple months on both of our podcasts. And congrats on everything you're doing.

And again, I just want to highlight the fact that when I saw you post that I don't know where it was, I have no idea what group it was in, I just remember seeing it and being like, "That's really freaking cool."

So, it's really awesome to connect this way. And good luck on your future opportunities, and retreats, and your podcast. And yeah, please share with the audience where they can find you if they want to come on one of these events, anything you've got.

MELISSA WESNER: Yes, absolutely. So, I don't know our retreat page, web page by heart, but my website is lifespringcounseling.net. You can also email me, [email protected]. I'm also on The Dreaming and Doing podcast, which you can find on Apple and Spotify. And so, that's another way where you can find me and information about the retreat.

PATRICK CASALE: Cool. And we'll put all that information in the show notes too and any links that you've given us so people have easy access to that, to follow you for future opportunities as well. And thank you so much for coming on.

MELISSA WESNER: Thank you so much for having me, Patrick. I love what you're doing.

PATRICK CASALE: Thank you. To everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out every single Saturday on all major channels and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. See you next week.