Episode 167: Avoiding the Expert Trap in Public Speaking [featuring Carol Cox]

Show Notes

In this episode, I speak with Carol Cox, founder and CEO of Speaking Your Brand. Carol is a powerhouse when it comes to helping entrepreneurs and professionals create impactful presentations and thought leadership platforms.

We discuss the concept of the "Expert Trap" and how it affects public speakers and entrepreneurs alike. Carol shares valuable insights on overcoming self-doubt, perfectionism, and imposter syndrome to truly connect with your audience.

Key Takeaways:

1. Avoiding the Expert Trap: Don’t feel the need to pack every fact and detail into your talk. Focus on what transformation your audience needs and weave personal stories to make your message relatable.
2. Emotional Resonance: The stories you are most reluctant to share often have the greatest impact. Make sure your story includes specific details and emotional elements to deeply connect with your audience.
3. Overcoming Perfectionism: Strategies such as finding a trusted person to discuss your ideas, accepting nerves as part of the process, and even getting involved in supportive communities can make a big difference.

More about Carol:

Carol Cox is the founder and CEO of Speaking Your Brand®, a coaching and training company that works with high-performing, purpose-driven women entrepreneurs and professionals to create their signature talks and thought leadership platforms. Carol is the host of the weekly, 5-star-rated Speaking Your Brand® podcast and, during election seasons, serves as a political analyst on TV news. Carol was named one of Orlando's Women of the Year in 2021 and featured in Forbes. Through her company and content, her mission is to empower more women to find and use their voices, to tell the stories that need to be told, and to activate ideas for change.

• Speaking Your Brand Podcast: speakingyourbrand.com/podcast
• Discover Your Speaker Archetype = free quiz so listeners can learn what their natural speaking and communication strengths are and how to add to them: speakingyourbrand.com/quiz
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/carolcox

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the All Things Private Practice podcast. I'm here today with Carol Cox, who is the founder and CEO of Speaking Your Brand, a coaching and training company that works with high-performing, purpose-driven women, entrepreneurs, and professionals to create their signature talks and thought leadership platforms.

Carol is a host of a weekly five-star rated Speaking Your Brand podcast, and during election season, serves as a political analyst. That must have been a [INDISCERNIBLE 00:01:26] right now [CROSSTALK 00:01:28]-

CAROL COX: Yes, yes. And because we're recording this the week after the election. Yeah, I was tired. I was tired election night.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I'm sure. I think a lot of us are still tired. And yeah, I'm not going to diverge too much today, but yeah. So, it's good to have you on here. I know you're an expert speaker, speaking coach, helping people really get their voices out into the world.

And one thing you pitched me on when you submitted the form was getting caught in the expert trap. And that really caught my attention because I talk a lot about self-doubt, perfectionism, impostor syndrome on this podcast, and I'm just curious about, like, what that means, and also any other context you want to share with the audience about who you are?

CAROL COX: Sure. Well, Patrick, thank you so much, first, for having me. I'm delighted to be here. And I will tell you a little bit about the expert trap and how it came to me because I very much was in it. And as a high achieving, ambitious woman, professional, and entrepreneur, and this really goes for both men and women, but when, especially, as entrepreneurs, and as public speakers, and as thought leaders, is that we want to share our expertise. After all, we've been doing this throughout our business or our career. We have degrees, credentials, certifications. I know that your listeners, Patrick, are people who own private practices, so they definitely have degrees and credentials.

And for very good reason, we need those things. I always say you need to be an expert with your clients. With the people who are paying you for your service, you absolutely should provide them with your expertise. But where we get stuck in that, and so I call the expert trap, is when we're going to deliver a talk, a keynote, a conference session, a presentation somewhere, is that we think that we need to give our audiences all this information that has taken us 10 or 20 years for us to absorb and figure out. And if we can just, like, get on to bullet points and, like, share it all with them in 30, 45, minutes, they're going to be good.

And it's like, no, actually, what your audience needs is they need to understand themselves, where they are, and the transformation that they're going to undergo based on what it is that you know, and you've learned that you can share with them.

PATRICK CASALE: Spot on. I could not say that better myself. I want to give some perspective, for those of you who are listening, you often hear me like talk about building the plane as you fly it, like trusting the knowledge you've gained through the years, the experience, the training, but not getting stuck in that perfectionistic process.

And I'm giving a TED talk in February. That TED talk is 12 to 16 minutes, right? It's very easy to get caught up in the mindset of it's a TED talk. I have to pack that 12 to 16 minutes with every fact I can think of about what I'm talking about. But in reality, that would not really make for a valuable talk, in my opinion, especially, in a 12 to 16-minute window.

Also, the audience doesn't know what you're forgetting, what you're missing out on, what you plan to incorporate, that maybe you pivoted from. Like, they have no freaking idea, right? They just want it to be valuable. They want you to, like, put a lot of soul into it. So, I agree 100% of what you're saying.

CAROL COX: Yes. And to your point, Patrick, especially, for shorter presentations, you really can't. You have to focus so much on the one message that you want to share.

And also, I believe that why TED Talks became such a thing is because of the personal storytelling element of it. And I feel like in so many of these "expert talks" business presentations, we feel like personal stories have no place in them because that's kind of how we grew up thinking, but it's the personal stories. And you know this better than anyone, Patrick, is what our audiences relate to and how it makes us relatable to them, and they can see their own journey, and the journey we've gone on.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I mean, this goes without saying from when I was doing private practice coaching, when we're talking about developing like website copy and Psych Today copy, and when therapists are talking like walking DSM-5s. And most people do not have master's degrees in clinical mental health or social work. And most people don't speak like that. And being able to speak in relatable terms, sharing some of your story, a little disclosure, some of the struggle, some of the triumph, that's the stuff that's really relatable. It is not this language where we exist all up here, right? It's really about putting yourself into a lot of these scenarios.

CAROL COX: Yes, let me give you a great example of this, Patrick, is I had a woman that I worked with as a client. This was way back in 2017. And we were working on her TEDx Orlando talk. She had been selected to give a talk there. And she was a certified financial planner and a money coach, but she knew that she wasn't going to get on that stage, a TEDx stage, and just talk about the benefits of financial planning and compound interest all the things that you're supposed to do.

The reason she wanted to give this talk is because, very sadly, she had a tragic situation in her family, but she knew that was the way to break through to her audience and the message that she wanted to share. And so, it was hard work for her to share that very vulnerable story. But because of that, her TEDx talk has been viewed over 2 million times. She gets notes from people around the world who said, either, you've literally saved my life, or you've saved a loved one's life because you've talked about money shame and how it impacted you and your family, not just some abstract concept.

PATRICK CASALE: That's so perfectly stated because that's what it's all about. That's the stuff that really resonates and lands for people.

And if you're listening, a lot of you are either in this space of entrepreneurialship, and you're thinking, "I'm in private practice. I want to do more. I want to expand into coaching, writing a book, speaking opportunities." Etc. I can tell you, and Carol can confidently tell you, the stuff that really is attractive to your audience is the realness, it's the authenticity, it's the storytelling aspect.

And I think for a lot of mental health entrepreneurs, we get caught up in this mentality of, "I don't know how my skills are applicable in any other way other than one-on-one therapy."

CAROL COX: Oh, but I feel like you all have so many stories, not that you would share, obviously, not confidential information. And I've had a number of clients who also are mental health therapists or counselors, and the example I cite to them is Lori Gottlieb's book. I forget the title of it, but she's a very well-known psychologist.

And she shared, number one, her own personal struggles with therapy, which, as a therapist, having to go to therapy, but then also, obviously, composites and removing identifying details about her own clients.

But what stuck out to me about that book was not so much for client stories, which were interesting and useful. It was that she was willing to share her own struggles and her own perceived failures. And then, I thought, well, as a therapist, if she's willing to do that, then she would understand me and why I am coming to her and wouldn't judge me or look down upon me. And that's why I share experiences of speaking engagements that I have bombed.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

CAROL COX: Not because I'm happy about them, but to let people know, like, I'm not perfect. We all experience things that don't go well, but that's what makes us relatable, and that's what makes us human.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, and we talk a lot on here about normalizing fear and failure. And I think we have to look at failure as a data point. Like, we can't look at it as this black-and-white experience where it's like, "I failed. I'm no good at this. I'm never going to get better. Nothing will ever improve."

Talking about failure is relatable because nobody is perfect. Social media can certainly paint that picture. But ultimately, we're all human. We're all going through our own humanness, our own journeys, our own struggles, having different epiphany moments, learning experiences, etc. And I think bringing those in, and introducing those, and weaving those throughout, whether it be website copy, speaking opportunity, proposals when you're up on stage, that's the stuff that people really remember and anchor into.

CAROL COX: Yes. And so, a question that I get a lot from the clients that we work with is, well, either they can't think of any stories in particular, or they're not sure which stories to share. So, I'll give a couple of guidelines that may be useful for those of you listening, is, first, whatever story you're sharing, in whatever medium it happens to be, should ultimately it be in service to your audience. So, you're not just saying it because just for the heck of it, or TMI, or because you need to process it yourself. The story has to serve the audience and the overall message that you're sharing with them. So, keep that in mind.

The second thing is that great stories have a challenge, a choice, and an outcome. So, you were faced with a challenge, you made a choice, the choice revealed something about you at that time, and then there was ultimate outcome. Would you make the same choice? Would you make something different? What do you know about yourself now versus then?

And then, the last thing that I'll say is the emotional resonance and the story tends to be the story that you're most reluctant to share. But going back still, what's the service to the audience and the message? But what is that story that you're most reluctant to share?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, no, that's great advice because I think that's the stuff we often shy away from, right? But that's the necessary story to get out into the world, the one that's really powerful. And I think it can be cathartic for you as well to share some of that stuff. So, I think it's like there's double meaning there.

With the people who are listening, if they're thinking, okay, this all sounds great in theory, but I experience a lot of perfectionism, or a lot of self-doubt, or a lot of impostor syndrome, strategies or tips to start moving towards some of the stuff that you do?

CAROL COX: I would say that, first, find someone that you trust to start talking through some of the ideas or the stories that you have in mind. And so, if you're trying to think of what are good stories for you to share, again, whatever medium, whether it's social media, podcasts, speaking engagements, articles, a book, whatever you're working on. So, find some type of trusted person that you feel knows you, but it's a little bit distant from you. So, probably not someone in your family, right? That may not be the best choice, but find someone, maybe someone like Patrick or a coach that you can work with.

The second thing is that if you are, say, relatively new to public speaking or thinking about thought leadership is to think about what is that message that you want to share with your audience that they can take away in one sentence, but that is also unique to you.

So, for example, on this podcast, I'm going to talk about this idea of the expert trap. So, this is something I came up with thinking about what have I experienced, and what have my clients experienced that is getting them stuck? So, try to think of like, what is that bigger picture that you see, that your audience may not yet see for themselves that could be helpful to them?

And as far as a perfectionism and impostor syndrome, yes, we all experience it. Even people who are very successful, they will say they experience it as well. But Patrick, to your motto, you just have to do it anyway sometimes, but find that supportive community. Like, I know Patrick, you run these incredible retreats. I imagine that people who get together there, they find this incredible supportive community. It's going to give them that encouragement, going to give them those like, gentle, loving, but pushes to say, okay, like, it's time you need to put yourself out there.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's great advice. And I agree with you 100%. I do see that in our events, in our retreats. Like, you see these small groups of communities forming within the community, and then those people turn into accountability buddies or partners. And then, they are traveling together, and they're supporting each other, and they're kind of, like, pushing each other to step out of that comfort zone even more. So, that's great advice.

One thing I see a lot of, and I've experienced this myself in the past, and I think a lot of people have is this thought of like, "What if my story isn't really unique or different from anybody else's? What if this story has been told before?"

Now, I have my own thoughts on this. Of like, not many ideas are, like, really that individualized or unique. It's just an approach, and our own perspective, and what we think about it, and how we've experienced some of these things. But do you mind sharing your thoughts on that statement? Because that comes up a lot for people.

CAROL COX: Oh, for sure. I hear this all the time, like my idea is not new. You know, there's 100 different talks about it, or people have already written books about it. And the answer is yes, unless you're discovering some novel scientific breakthrough, yes, your topic, your umbrella topic has been talked about before. But it's your story, and again, it's your perspective, and those lessons learned that is what is unique.

And there are story genres like rags to riches, or, you know people like having success and then a failure. Like, yes, there are story genres. But it's actually the specificity of your story that is unique. And that's where I also see a lot of people end up kind of smoothing out the edges, like the rough edges of their story, thinking that the more generic the story is, the more their audience will relate to it, but it's really the opposite. The more specific the story, the more that it's relatable.

So, drop us into the scene like you're writing a screenplay for a film. Where were you? Were you on a Zoom call? Were you on an airplane? Were you at the park? Were you in your house? Who was there? What is the dialog going on? What emotions are you feeling? What is the action? I had this ideal story ingredients, ideal is an acronym that goes through this because it's actually the more detailed, and that moment in time where everything switched for you. That's what your audience wants to hear.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's so perfectly said. I think that is such a great takeaway, and for all of you listening, to try really hard to absorb because we do get caught up in the, okay, I have to make this content, or story, or speech, or whatever for everybody. This needs to hit everyone, like, right in the heart, or this needs to be relatable.

The reality is, like, your story is not going to be for everybody, right? Like, and we attract and repel based on kind of how we show up, what we put out into the world. We're not always going to have the same types of audiences. And I think that keeps us stuck sometimes is that mentality of like, I can't get going because my story is not unique enough, my idea is not unique enough, my coaching program is not unique enough, whatever.

And like you said, unless you're discovering some new minerals, some new way of life, like, I mean, some new theory, these ideas are not that unique.

And I kept myself very small in the sector that I'm in of like, private practice coaching and small business coaching for mental health therapists for a long time. And my thought process and my narrative was always like, "There's someone else who lives in your city who does the exact same thing, and they have a very large audience. Why would anybody ever hire you?"

Once you start really moving into that authenticity piece, really speaking to your experience, and like you said, the thoughts, the feelings, the emotions, hell, even the temperature, like what it felt like to be in that experience that you're discussing, like, that's the stuff that people are really drawn to, and you can really get creative with that.

And I think mental health professionals like you said, have so many skills, and so many stories to tell, and make really fantastic speakers and trainers a lot of the times getting out of your own way.

CAROL COX: And to that point about mental health therapists and counselors, you all are really good at listening because that's what you spend probably the vast majority of sessions are, is listening. Like, those active listening skills to draw out and help your client understand themselves better.

And as speakers, we oftentimes think that it's one way, that we're just monologuing to the audience. And even if your audience literally is not saying anything out loud to you, maybe it's a really big audience. And sure, someone can shout out an answer, but maybe not. I really see it as a two-way energetic exchange with the audience.

And as a speaker, you know, I am literally listening, and feeling for what the audience is doing and how they're resonating with what I'm sharing with them. And this may surprise a lot of your listeners, Patrick, is that I have found that most public speakers are introverts. And a lot of times we think that they're extroverts. I'm an introvert. And I think that actually being an introvert is an advantage as a speaker because we're very observant and we're very in tune to other people.

PATRICK CASALE: Yes, 100% yes. I am very introverted. When I'm hosting retreats, I have to almost mask, in a way, but I'm trying to be as authentic as possible. But I'm also, like, holy shit, this is overwhelming.

But I agree about the introverted piece about being a great speaker because we're often really perceptive about body language, facial expression, absorbing energy, picking up energy in the room, even.

I often state, like, while on stage that I don't really craft my speech or my talk until I get up there. And I need to, like, experience all of the nervousness, all of the anxiety to make me feel like I can absorb the energy around me. And that doesn't work for everybody. I don't recommend that for everyone listening, but it really works for me. And I've gotten really good at just being very attuned to what the audience is kind of looking for, what they're looking to get out of it, and crafting that talk based on what they need.

And I think that we already know a lot of the information about what we're going to talk about, but that different spin, or perspective, or shifting what you think you're going to talk about based on, like, being around the group for a day or two sometimes can really be impactful.

CAROL COX: Oh, yes. And clearly, you are an experienced speaker, Patrick, to be able to do that because a lot of people who don't speak a lot, very often that would petrify them because, you know, they want all of their script written out and all of that. I'm like, no, no, no. Like, you could have a slide deck, but we don't want to memorize a whole entire script.

But I know that very experienced speakers like you, you know they'll have index cards, maybe with different points or stories. And they know they're not going to go through all their index cards for that particular talk, but they'll kind of pull the ones out that they think are going to be the best fit for that particular audience.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. Yeah, I don't recommend my approach to most of you listening. The fact that I actually have to script the TED talk is actually freaking me out because I never, ever script anything I do. So, it's, like, completely counterintuitive to my brain to think like, "Okay, we actually have to format this." But that's neither here or there.

Yeah, I think that getting comfortable speaking is important too. So, there are lots of ways to get comfortable if you're thinking, like, how do I even get started? We've talked a lot about this on this podcast. Like, even going to Toastmasters at first can be a really helpful exercise to get in front of an audience and do some public speaking, just getting on camera, getting on the microphone. Like, getting comfortable with it.

And that doesn't mean you won't have nerves when you're up on stage. Like, I still have heart palpitations that make me feel like I'm having a heart attack for the first five minutes. And that's just my reality. But like, it does get more and more comfortable as you get some more experience under your belt too.

CAROL COX: Yes, and nerves are normal. I still get those, I call them butterflies of excitement beforehand. Like, getting a little sweaty, but it's also a normal part of our physiology, just because, you know, it's a high-stakes situation. We're there, we want to do a good job. Our body is going to react that way.

So, as long as you realize that and try to work with your body instead of resisting what is going on. So, I'll often tell our clients that if you are feeling really nervous before a talk, just do some show of hands questions with the audience right off the bat, it gets you physically moving, like your arm. And it takes a little bit of the pressure off of you and puts it on the audience for the first few minutes, and then, you can kind of go in to your talk.

So, yeah, it is normal to feel nervous for sure. And as you mentioned, Patrick, doing things like Toastmasters can be helpful. I know that even though I have a long career in public speaking, doing my podcast for over 400 episodes now has definitely made me a much more confident and comfortable public speaker because I have to do this every single week, not only my own podcast but coming on to podcasts like yours.

PATRICK CASALE: For sure. Yeah, and I think that's a great thought, too, for you listening. Like, there are so many ways to get on podcasts, to pitch yourself, to say, "Hey, here are a couple of ways that I think I can be valuable for your audience."

It also helps you with the process of putting yourself out there. And there's sometimes going to be rejection in that, and that's okay. So, I just want to honor and encourage that, for those of you listening who are like, "How the hell do I even get started?" And ultimately, what was I going to say? Oh, you mentioned, like, getting the audience involved. I like to do that too. Usually, it's through like self-deprecating humor. And if the audience is laughing, and I'm laughing at myself, then all of a sudden I'm like, "Okay, I feel like I know what I can talk about now." Which is what I just did in my Italy Summit because I decided I should go last, because it was my idea, my summit, my baby, in a way. And I was like, "I want to close the summit out."

I got to spend five days around 100 people getting to know like the struggle areas, the concerns, the fears, the excitability moments. And I really used that to craft my speech for the last session of that event. And it was really awesome. Like, I don't often brag in myself, but I had a lot of people come up and say that was the best, like, speech you've ever given.

And it was just being really real and authentic in the moment and really embracing that opportunity, and also, being really freaking nervous and almost falling off the stage from heat exhaustion. So, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:24:52] speak. So, I was up pacing, pacing, pacing, and then, like, so hot, and I was like, "Oh my God, if I fall off the stage right now that would certainly make a memorable moment."

CAROL COX: Right. And this is a great example, Patrick. I mentioned I've had bad speaking engagements or things that didn't go maybe as well as I would have liked. And I always say, if you put enough speaking reps in, at some point something's going to go the way that you don't want to go. Either the slides don't work, AV problems, you know, you're really sweaty because you didn't hydrate enough, or like, wardrobe malfunctions.

PATRICK CASALE: All of those, and all of the above. So, that's, again, being comfortable with the, like, perfectly imperfect, it is okay for these things to go awry. They happen and just getting out of our own ways.

So, Carol, I've really enjoyed this convo. And you, obviously, have an enormous amount of knowledge around this topic. And I know this is a big part of what you do on a day-to-day. And I really appreciate you coming on. We rescheduled multiple times for hurricane-related incidents in Western North Carolina. So, thank you for that flexibility, and thank you for being here, and making the time. And please share with the audience where they can find you, how they can access you, and what you offer.

CAROL COX: Yes, Patrick. Well, thank you so much for your time and having me on. I really enjoyed talking with you about this as well. If you all like listening to podcasts, you can check out my podcast called Speaking Your Brand. As I mentioned, I have lots and lots of episodes, so you can find the topics that you want to listen to the most.

If you want to discover what your speaker archetype is, so what kind of speaker are you? I really want you to lean into your natural strengths, but then, amplify them to make you even more of an engaging speaker. You can take that free quiz at speakingyourbrand.com/quiz.

PATRICK CASALE: That's awesome. And we'll have that information for you in the show notes so you have easy access to Carol's podcast, and to that quiz, and ways that you can work with her.

Thanks for coming on again and making the time. And to everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast, I almost said the Divergent Conversations podcast because I just got done recording that. New episodes are out on every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. We'll see you next week.