Episode 168: Bridging Therapy Accessibility and Profitability with Tech [featuring Christine Li]

Show Notes

In this episode, I talk with Christine Li, the inspiring founder of Mentaya. Christine shares her journey from Google to founding Mentaya, as well as insights about starting private pay practices, leveraging technology in mental health, and the future of AI in our field.

Here are 3 key takeaways:

1. Navigating Insurance and Benefits: As we approach the end of the year, insurance benefits reset, and verifications need to be updated. Whether you're a private pay practice or considering it, staying on top of these changes ensures seamless client support and consistent revenue flow.
2. AI and Mental Health: Artificial Intelligence is advancing rapidly, but the essence of therapy—true human connection—remains irreplaceable. While AI may offer support or access in some areas, the therapeutic relationship and the genuine human connection it offers cannot be fully replicated by machines.
3. Embracing Change and Entrepreneurship: The journey of transitioning from a secure job to founding a startup is both thrilling and challenging. Christine's experience of leaving Google to create Mentaya highlights the importance of taking risks to pursue what you truly care about. It's about making an impact and bringing valuable change to the community.

More about Christine:

Christine is the founder and CEO of Mentaya – a company that helps private practice therapists collect their full cash rate by taking advantage of out-of-network (OON) benefits. Mentaya instantly calculates clients’ benefits and automatically files OON claims to help your clients get reimbursed (70% on average!). Christine is a strong advocate for mental health and left her job as a Google Product Manager to start Mentaya.

• Try out Mentaya FOR FREE at mentaya.com – therapists get 30 days free of our benefits checker! Promo code: PATRICK

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I want to thank The Receptionist for iPad for sponsoring this episode.

From new patients faced with an empty lobby and no idea where to find their therapist to clinicians with a session running over time and the doorbell ringing, some of the most anxiety-ridden moments of a therapy appointment happen before a session even starts. The Receptionist for iPad, helps you tackle some of that pre-appointment apprehension and anxiety.

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I want to thank Alma for sponsoring this episode.

Building and managing the practice you want can be challenging. That’s why Alma offers tools and resources to help you build not just any practice, but your private practice. They’ll help you navigate insurance, access referrals who are the right fit for you, and efficiently manage administrative tasks — so you can spend less time on the details, and more time delivering great care. You support your clients. Alma supports you.

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to All Things Private Practice podcast. I'm joined today by Christine Li for the second time, the founder of Mentaya. And for those of you who don't know what Mentaya is, they are a service that help private pay practice therapists gain more private pay clients or start your private pay practice. They also help the client, and where the client can find out what their out-of-network deductible is, or what their benefit packaging is, and that's a really cool service. It makes therapy really accessible on both ends.

Really excited to have you here because we have no idea what we're going to talk about and those are kind of my favorite conversations.

CHRISTINE LI: All right. Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

PATRICK CASALE: Any context or anything I missed that you want to share with the audience who maybe doesn't know you?

CHRISTINE LI: No. I mean, feel free to just get into it. Feel free to ask me any questions. Happy to just discuss.

PATRICK CASALE: So, before we started recording we pitched the ideas around. Well, you pitched the ideas around of the following, and I want to just share this with the audience because they're all applicable, of like out of network benefit reimbursement. I passed on that because we had that conversation already.

We're coming up to the end of the year, which means that benefits are starting over, deductibles are starting over, verifications where insurance needs to start over. So, we'll probably touch on that to some degree.

You wanted to talk about potentially coming from Google and the tech space, which is pretty male dominated to the mental health space, which is pretty female dominated as a CEO and founder. And also, talking about some other stuff in between.

So, let's play this, choose your own adventure game of coming from Google, and the tech space, and starting Mentaya. What's going through your mind when you're leaving, like, this big tech company to start your own thing?

CHRISTINE LI: Oh, wow. This takes me back. Great question. It was scary, right? Like, I had grown up around tech. I'm from the Bay Area. It's funny because I never wanted to go into tech. I was like, "I'm not going to be in tech. I'm going to do something different. I want to do something that I find to be personally, like, super meaningful." And, of course, I studied computer science in college. I'm naturally like a math nerd, like, really gravitate towards just a lot of the stuff that tech has.

And so, I became a product manager at Google. And I really enjoy product. Like, I love thinking about product. And Google is a great place. It was a huge company. It was also very male-dominated, but that's all I was used to, I think, because just a lot of my interest happened to be in more male-dominated areas.

But I was both scared, but also, excited to try to take the leap and see if I could start something myself that would be in a space that I really deeply cared about and felt really meaningful to me.

PATRICK CASALE: So solid answer. I think the scared and excited place is like the sweet spot, you know? I think that tells you you're on the right path, that you care about the journey, and that you are nervous about it. And I don't think anything is a sure thing, right? Like, in startup or in founding anything.

And that goes for those of you listening who are like, "I want to start my own practice." Not saying that we can't be successful, but if the results were guaranteed everybody would take these leaps, right? So, there is risk involved. And there is risk involved of, like, stepping away from what I imagine, from the outside perspective of stepping away from a pretty secure, well-paying tech job at a very well known, reputable company.

CHRISTINE LI: Yes, those are definitely considerations. And I think it's interesting. I think a lot of therapists, it's going into the space of mental health, obviously, thinking a lot about therapists are in private practice, and it's really interesting to see because there's not that many fields in which, you know, you're like, I want to become a therapist. And one of the main paths is you have to start your own business, right? Like, that is not a common thing at all.

PATRICK CASALE: There's more to that. One of the only pathways, right? It's either like community mental health or private practice. But grad school doesn't teach you how to do private practice. So, then it's like, "Now what?"

CHRISTINE LI: Yeah, and so it's funny because I think I have a lot of parallels in my journey where, obviously, my Google experience was great. I learned a lot about product. I learned about, you know, leadership, running teams, leading teams, things like that. But when you start a company there's certain skills you just have to figure it out yourself. The same way that I imagine a lot of therapists were going to private practice, or have gone into private practice have been like, "Okay, well, I've either, you know, seen colleagues do it. I've been part of a group practice." Or whatever it is. But it's still very difficult.

You're like, oh my gosh, I have to deal with taxes myself. I have to incorporate the business. I have to, like, get this insurance and that insurance, and just all the stuff that no one talks about or thinks about because no one teaches you how to do it, you just have to figure it out. But that's also part of the fun of it.

PATRICK CASALE: I agree. I think that challenge is part of the fun of it. I think, like, trying to figure it out is part of the fun of it. Some people do need more, like, structured roadmap, though. And for those people, I think it's really daunting because, really, your access to resources is what? Like a couple of different therapist's Facebook groups that might share a checklist, or a startup guide, or, you know, maybe this podcast, or whatever. But everything feels really overwhelming when you look at it in like list form. Then you start, like, checking things off, and you're like, "Oh, this is actually quite easy. Why did I take so long to do it?"

And it's a shame because so many people hold themselves back from pursuing their goals or their dreams because of the "I don't know how." Or the thing that makes me even more sad is, "I don't think I would be good at it or successful at it if I tried." And I see a lot of people, like, holding themselves back from pursuing that aspiration because of that thinking.

Did you have any of those feelings, like, when you were leaving to start this company?

CHRISTINE LI: Yeah. I mean, I think I had a lot of those thoughts. I will say, naturally, I'm someone who is excited about change and embraces change. And I do thrive in, sort of, like, ambiguity and new things. And that excites me. But of course, I was like, "What if I'm too young." Like, I'm not the stereotypical, at least, in tech. I'm not the typical founder, you know? Like, I don't fit that stereotype. For me, it wasn't about like, "Oh, I want to make a ton of money." I'd really just care about making the impact. And of course, who doesn't want money? Like, that's great, but I'm taking a huge pay cut to run Mentaya. Like, if I wanted to make money odds are I would have made way more money if I stayed at Google, right?

And so, for me, it was a more of a less typical and non-traditional path. And so, I had a lot of fears around, like, "What if I'm not good enough, or what if I spend a bunch of time doing this? What if therapists just like don't like what I'm building?" I'm trying my best to do something that is beneficial for the therapist and the client. And I try really hard to talk to a bunch of therapists and understand their perspective, to make sure what we're building, I think, is taking them into account.

But like, what if they're just like, "Oh, here's some random person from tech who comes in and tries to, like, screw us over again?" You know? Like, I feel like there's a lot of those narratives. And so, those are things that I'm very aware of. And I try to make sure that I'm not just one of those people doing that. And so, that's definitely something that I think about a lot.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, I get the sense that you care very much. You know, I met you about, probably, over a year ago, when you were on this before we had some, you know, conversations back and forth. And I think it's easy to tell who really cares about the thing that they're creating, the thing that they're trying to get people to use, or how they want to help them and those that don't.

And I think it's obvious that you and your mission, you really do care about the outcome, the experience, especially, on both sides. Like, we can talk a little bit about why mental health. And I think you did do this the last time you were on here, but I think it matters when you care about the clinicians getting paid well, right? That's huge. And the client getting reimbursement so that they can afford therapy. That feels like a win-win. It feels like a paradox a lot of the time, like, that we have to sacrifice one or the other. So, the fact that you're trying to create something that has some duality, I think, is really a values-aligned business model and something that you, obviously, are passionate about.

Can you talk a little bit about why mental health? Like, why did this feel like the thing that you wanted to create?

CHRISTINE LI: Yeah, so I have been really interested in mental health for a while. I went to a high school that had a lot of mental health issues. And at a time in which there was a lot of stigma about it. People didn't know how to talk about it. School didn't really know how to handle it, either. And we were all, like, teenagers. And I guess trigger warning here, but we, you know, made national news for teen suicides. And so, I think, it first happened right before I actually moved to new place and start high school.

So, I don't even think I knew what mental health was back then. But I think just, you know, being, sort of, like seeing that happen, being surrounded by at least attempts around conversations around it, throughout all of high school, I think, kind of just stuck with me. It wasn't like I was, "Oh, now, I'm so interested in mental health." But I think just naturally in the back of my head, it was always really important to me, and I saw the consequences of just, like, lack of awareness of it, like people didn't know how to deal with it. It was just like a tough time to watch.

And when I got to college, I studied computer science, and I was really interested in just like, the algorithms and the, like, problem-solving parts of it. But every chance I had, like, for my senior thesis in college, I did mine in the mental health space because I think I just naturally gravitated towards it. I don't think I even realized it.

And then, when I was thinking of quitting Google and figuring out what to do next, I was like, "All right, I've, like, gained up some skills working at Google. Like, what do I want to do with it?" And I considered becoming a therapist, actually. I thought about that for a bit. I thought about the spaces I cared about. And for me, it boiled down to, mental health was like one of the most important things, I think is.

It's also so fundamental to humanity. Like, every single person, like we talk about physical health, but mental health is just as important, if not more important, in some ways than physical health, right? Like, wouldn't you rather be very mentally healthy and, like, maybe physically, not in the best shape or in the best health than, like, you're like tip-top shape physical health-wise, but you're struggling with your mental health. Like, that sucks. And so, I wanted to work on something that was personally meaningful to me, and felt like it was very fundamental to humanity in general.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, no, absolutely. I love that. And I think being drawn to the things that you feel like are really important to you, and having that story really helps set the stage, right? In terms of how can we help on a larger spectrum? Because if you became a therapist, you could certainly be helpful, without a doubt. And you can have ripple effect in the community.

But doing what you're doing now, you do have access to helping a lot of communities. And I think that's really important because, ultimately, Mentaya being able to help therapists get paid more, we all want that. Even if you're listening and you're like, "No, I don't. That's not why I got this field." You definitely do. And also, being able to ensure that there's accessibility for the clients because clients so often have to, like, default to whoever's just available. And that sucks.

Like, for us in Appalachia, here in Western North Carolina, where, you know, Asheville is quite liberal and progressive, but if you go outside of it, not so much. And for our queer and trans clients who are looking for therapists in rural North Carolina, it can be really challenging. And to say, like, I have to see the person in my town, or I have to see the person who's available because they take my insurance, that really can be quite limiting in really good quality outcomes. So, what you offer is quite valuable.

Now, I want to pivot a bit, because you also pitched me on the idea before we started, and I didn't even mention this because I forgot until this second, on like AI and how that influences health care and mental health care, and what you think about the future of mental health care while we kind of do this, like, delicate dance with are we pro or con artificial intelligence? And what do we think that's going to do?

And I want to just say, I'll make my own statement right now, it's not going anywhere, for those of you listening. Like, if you're like, "I hate AI, it's going to ruin the field." Like, I hear you. It's also not going anywhere. Like, it's just going to continue to evolve. So, as someone with a tech background, yeah, share your thoughts.

CHRISTINE LI: Yeah. So, actually, one of my teams I worked at Google was on, like, the Google AI research team. And so, I was really close to a lot of the technology because I thought it was really interesting. And this was, you know, many years ago. And it wasn't quite where it is now. And now, I mean, anyone who's used like ChatGPT, you've seen it. It's gotten pretty good.

And I think a lot of people are scared of change. I know that there's definitely some fear from therapists. And I'm sure other professions as well. Like, "Is this going to replace my job?" Like, "Oh, I don't like this."

And while that's scary to think about, I actually think if anything, of all the fields out there, like you either believe that AI is just not going to change too much, which, that's not my first belief. I think it's going to actually change a lot of things. But you either believe that and you're just like, continue on as usual. Or it's going to be this massive change that's going to kind of similar to COVID, like, just change people's lives and change the way we do things a lot. You're starting to see that a lot already.

But if you think about human connection, like humans are fundamentally soulful creatures that create human connection. And yes, maybe AI can try to replicate some parts of that, but imagine, like 50 years from now, so many things can be automated. AI might take over a lot of different things. But one of the most important things that it's going to be the hardest to replace is, like, true human connection.

And I think with therapy, that's why I don't think therapists are going to be replaced by AI. I think there might be situations in which people who can't afford any type of therapy, like it opens up access to people already using ChatGPT to, like, talk to about things, whether or not that's, you know, safe or not, people are already doing that.

But I do think that given that, from what I've heard, one of the biggest predictors of success in therapy is a therapeutic relationship between the therapist and the client. Like, that's not going to go anywhere. I think we just might see a world in which you have, like, therapy is more of a premium experience, of like, if you can afford that, great, and if you don't have insurance, you can't afford to pay anything, maybe there's some version of AI that can be there to support you in some way that's not quite therapy, but it's better than nothing.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think that's well stated. I mean, I agree with you 100%. I don't think therapy is going anywhere. I think we're going to see therapy change drastically over the next five to 10 years with just cultural shifts. And unfortunately, the insurance companies buying up, like, practices. We're going to start seeing a lot of stuff shift with, like, some of the platforms that I'm not going to name on here, who will send me cease and desist letters for naming them. But I think that AI has its place.

And when you talk about automation, and we talk about helping automate things that make our lives difficult, or challenging, or frustrating, there's so much benefit for software that can take a lot of that load from you and really handle it so that you don't have to use your very limited time, and resource, and energy, and executive functioning to do some of that stuff. And that includes like automation for scheduling responses, note-taking, web design. Like, all of the things that you can do at a click of a button, it's really remarkable.

And I think you either are like, like you said, going to continue on with your life and act as if it doesn't exist, or you're going to embrace it and, like, really deep dive it. I love it. I love being able to take, like, links to podcasts or ideas that I've had, or videos I've done, placing them in like AI software, and having it create a presentation for me in a matter of five minutes. Like, I don't want to sit there and make the slides. I really don't.

So, I think it just makes my life so much easier. I almost think about it as, like, I've talked about this example a lot on this podcast for some reason, but it always sticks out to me that I hate mowing my lawns so freaking much, and I would much rather pay someone $50, $60 to mow my lawn so in that hour or two I can generate more revenue, focus on creativity, not do a thing that drives me fucking crazy.

And I think that when we're talking about automation, it really is just trying to figure out what are those things that can make your life a little bit easier.

CHRISTINE LI: Yeah, and I think that's, especially, in a field like therapy where a lot of therapists running their own businesses. They all have private practices. There's so many things I'm sure that people didn't realize they were signing up for, right? Like, presumably, you become a therapist because you want to, you know, help people and do therapy, and not do all the admin work and, like, all the bajillion, like, little things that add up and drain you.

And so, I would think of not even just AI, but any sort of software or automation when you're considering, like, do I want to pay for this? Like, value your time. Your time is so important. And especially, through like building Mentaya and like running a business. I'm starting to realize, like, I want to outsource all the things that, to your point, drain me, things that I'm just dreading. It's not even just the time, it's the energy suck of like, if you have 100 different little things at the end of doing that, you're just like, "I don't have time to think about anything else."

And so, whether it's AI or just some sort of software that helps you do something more quickly, think about, like, whenever they spend that hour having a session with a client, and like, that brings more meaning for me than to, like, do whatever admin work that you need to be doing.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, 100%. Like, I think, you know, you don't really realize when you start a business that you're going to wear all the hats, especially, at first, when you are, you know, struggling with cash flow and bringing in revenue, you're going to have to do a lot of this stuff yourself. I think for those of you who are in that space right now listening, think about the tasks and the things that you hate doing. Eventually, you'll probably want to start delegating and outsourcing those.

If you're scaling your business, that's another thing to think about. Is like, what can I off set, and outsource, and delegate to allow me to be more of the visionary, or the creative, or the leader, or the CEO of the company? And I think it's important to always kind of check in with yourself about those things.

For me, some of the stuff that interests me today I may not want to do next month or next year. Like, that's very typical for me as someone who's got an ADHD profile. Like, something that's exciting today may not be exciting next week. But it is important about relinquishing that control too and just getting comfortable with that unfamiliar piece.

We're kind of going all over the map on this episode, which I'm enjoying. So, another thing you mentioned to me, and we are recording this November 14th. We're getting close to the end of the year. This is a time where, for those of you who are taking insurance or have people in out-of-network and private pay, benefits are starting over, deductibles are starting over, verifications need to happen again. And that in itself are all things I want to outsource because I don't want to deal with any of that.

Talking on the phone with the insurance company, waiting on hold sucks. I feel for my admin team at my group practice who has to do it on a daily basis. If you're listening, I'm so sorry.

So, tell me why that feels like something important to hit on right now, too.

CHRISTINE LI: Yeah. So, I think whether you take insurance or you don't, or if you, I guess, obviously, are expertise's in out-of-network billing, private pay, open enrollment is happening like right now through… depends on the plan, depends on the employer, etc., but through January or end of the year. And this is a great time, especially, if you're private pay, or you want to be private pay to have a discussion with your clients about their insurance plans and out-of-network benefits.

There are different types of insurance plans, some plans like PPO plans, POS plans, high deductible plans. These are plans that generally have out-of-network benefits that allow clients to get money back on therapy. So, even if you're not taking insurance, they're still getting money back.

And so, if you have clients who are regularly seeing you, or want to see you regularly, but it's either too expensive or for whatever reason this can help alleviate the cost, they can pick a plan that has out-of-network benefits, allows them to get money back, so every therapy session is a lot less expensive and more accessible for them. And so, that's where the timing really matters.

And then, also, just making sure that, especially, if you're out of network or your private pay, you've given your clients super bills, a lot of clients probably just don't know what to do with it. Make sure to just check in with them and just be like, "Hey, have you submitted your super bills? If not, like, you should do it. Or here are some services that help you do that, so that you're getting money back."

Because there also is something called a timely filing limit with insurance where after a certain amount of time, they just won't accept the claims anymore, and they won't give you any money back. So, you want to make sure to do that before that time passes. So, it's, generally, kind of the end-of-the-year reset. Have these conversations, get prepped for next year.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep. I know a lot of you are thinking about taxes, and you are thinking about some of the stuff that Christine just mentioned. This stuff is really important. I know it's the stuff we often dread. And it really is the stuff you need to communicate with your clients and be on top of because it can, obviously, ensure that you can continue seeing the people that you enjoy seeing. It ensures they're taken care of, and they understand where they stand, and it ensures that you're getting paid. So, I really think this is of utmost important as we move into 2025 which feels ridiculous saying out loud. Yeah, that's good advice for sure.

Okay, we went all over the map. Did we leave anything out? Anything that you really want to share with the audience?

CHRISTINE LI: I don't think we left anything out. But I think that one thing that I have said before, and I will continue to say is how impressed I am by just therapists, in general. Like I know this is a group of people you genuinely want to help other people, and I think that's so amazing. But you also have to run your own business in a lot of cases. And that is not easy.

I don't know if there's any other field with so many people who don't study business, who are going into a space and in order to do what they want to do and make it financially viable in some cases, they need to run a business. And so, I know that it's hard, and I know that it, you know, takes time to kick off the ground. But I hope that it's worth it for everyone. And I just think it's amazing.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, we appreciate that, and definitely appreciate what you are trying to do for the therapist and mental health community at large. So, thanks again for coming on and making time. And please share with the audience where they can find what you're doing.

CHRISTINE LI: Yeah, so if you want to learn more about Mentaya, I know we touched on it a bit, but you can just go to our website. It's mentaya.com. It's M-E-N-T-A-Y-A.com and you can learn more about us and what we do. If you're interested check us out.

PATRICK CASALE: Do you still have a calculator that you can embed into your website too, that can check benefits.

CHRISTINE LI: Yes, we do. We have this instant benefits calculator that you can put on your website, send to your clients, help them understand their out-of-network benefits, so that they know that just because you don't take insurance, or just because you don't take their specific insurance doesn't mean they can't use their insurance to get money back on therapy.

PATRICK CASALE: Love it. So super easy to do. We'll have that in the show notes so that you all have access to check out Mentaya's resources and what Christine has created.

Thank you so much for coming on and appreciate you being willing to do an episode where we just didn't pick a theme, and we just saw where it went.

CHRISTINE LI: Of course, this was fun.

PATRICK CASALE: To everyone listening to All Things Private Practice, new episodes are out every single Saturday on all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. And we will see you next week.