Episode 36: Self-Care is a Privilege. Self-Regulation is a Survival Tool. [featuring Gabrielle Juliano-Villani]

Show Notes

Burnout for mental health professionals is real. It's not just a career-ender, but also plays a big part in our mental and physical health.

In this episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast, I talk with Gabrielle Juliano-Villani about burnout and burnout-beating strategies, as well as our own burnout stories and how they lead to monumental life changes.

Gabrielle shares her story about the toll that burnout took on her body and her journey of going from working in child protective services to owning a thriving group practice to SELLING the group practice that she work hard to create.

More about Gabrielle:

Gabrielle Juliano-Villani is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and founder of Colorado In-Home Counseling, a thriving group practice of 15 therapists, serving adults of all ages who struggle with anxiety, depression, grief/loss, chronic health conditions, trauma, life transitions, and stress management. Gabrielle has 15 years of experience working in the field of mental health, helping clients find better work/life balance and creating space for clients to reach their highest potential. Gabrielle is also a contributor and content creator to the Goodheart Collaborative, an app focused on burnout prevention for women in helping professions. Gabrielle has been published on thriveglobal.com and has also contributed to psychwire.com. Gabrielle is passionate about bridging gaps and making mental health accessible to everyone.

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A Thanks to Our Sponsor!

I would also like to thank The Receptionist for sponsoring this episode.

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The software sends an immediate notification to the therapist when a client checks in, and can even ask if any patient information has changed since their last visit.

Sign up for a 14-day free trial of The Receptionist for iPad by going to thereceptionist.com/privatepractice, and when you do, you’ll also receive a twenty-five dollar Amazon gift card.

Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Are you tired of running to the lobby to see if your next appointment has arrived? Would you like a more discreet, stress-free way for your clients to check-in? Take a deep breath. The Receptionist for iPad empowers your practice to create a Zen-like check-in experience.

This episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast is sponsored by The Receptionist for iPad. It's the highest-rated digital check-in software for therapy offices and behavioral health clinics, used by thousands of practitioners across the country, including, Dr. Ajita Robinson, our guest on this podcast back in episode 29. 

The Receptionist for iPad is a simple, inexpensive way to allow your clients to discreetly check in, to notify providers of a patient's arrival, and to ensure your front lobby is stress-free. The software sends an immediate notification to the therapist when a client checks in and could even ask if any patient information has changed or needs to be updated since their last visit.

Sign up for a free 14-day trial of The Receptionist for iPad by going to thereceptionist.com/privatepractice. When you do, you'll also receive a $25 Amazon gift card.

Hey, everyone, you are listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale. I'm joined today by my friend, Gabrielle Juliano-Villani. She is an LCSW in Florida and out of Colorado and we are going to talk about burnout, burnout strategies, our own burnout stories, and really anything else that comes up in between. So, I'm really happy to have you on. I know we've been trying to make this happen for a long time.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: We have and our schedules finally worked out. And I'm so happy to be here.

PATRICK CASALE: My schedule, more and more, is like never working out. And I think that plays a role in like burnout protection. But, you know, you wanted to talk about burnout and not just burnout, but some of your own story in terms of like some of the stuff you've struggled with. And I want to just give you the space and the floor to kind of start talking about that.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: Sure. So, I'm actually in, I would say, the middle of my second time being burnt out in this field. The first time was when I worked in Child Protective Services, which I'm sure is not a surprise to anybody. But obviously, that was a very taxing, trying job. And I also was broke, so I was trying to make extra money on top of it by doing night duty shifts and working a second job which didn't help.

And my family actually had an intervention with me and they were like, "You are really sick and you need to leave this job." And I was really sick. I was having nightmares and my hair was falling out. And that was when I first got diagnosed with Hashimoto's, which I think my burnout totally contributed to that.

So, I quit that job, which was very difficult because it was a really toxic work environment and they made me feel like I couldn't leave, and nothing would be better. And it was really fucked up and it was a very hard time for me, but I did leave and things are better, spoiler alert!

So, I moved on, I did some other things where I worked in care management, and then, that job kind of fizzled out, and then, I started my private practice in 2017. And I started my practices doing in-home therapy with older adults. And so, again, that, looking back, probably also led to some of this too, because I was driving all around the Denver Metro area, seeing 30 clients a week in their homes, in traffic.

And, you know, once I got to a point there where I was full and I was kind of like what's next for me? I hired somebody. And that just, obviously, kind of took off as these things do. And I got to 13 employees. And then, COVID happened, and 2020 was shitty year for everybody. For me, personally, my dad died. You know, I have daddy issues because all the best therapists do. So, that was complex and complicated. And when that happened, it was like something just changed in me and like that was such a defining moment for me. I was like, "What the fuck am I doing with my life? I hate where I'm living, I don't really like my job right now. Like, why am I just kind of in this place where I'm just… like, I was killing myself for my job." Is really what it felt like.

So, my husband and I picked up, and moved across the country, and moved to Florida to be closer to family and to the beach, which is where I belong. And then, I got COVID which was even more complicated because, you know, I have an autoimmune disorder and my dad had died from COVID earlier that year. Both of my parents got it, and my stepdad, I refer to him as my parent, he was in the ICU and came very close to death as well. And COVID for me was not just a cold. I was really, really sick. Like, I actually don't even remember most of it.

So anyway, because of that, I also got long COVID, which I'm still dealing with now. And when I look back on that time I'm just, again, so, you know, hindsight is 2020. But I'm so surprised that what I was doing, like, I had a fever, and I was like hallucinating, and I was still trying to see clients and manage my team because at that point I didn't have any health, and so, it was like, it's lonely at the top. I have to make all the decisions just because I'm sick, I need to still make money, and I still need to support my team. And so, I definitely pushed myself way too much during that.

But again, the good things that came from that was like, again, what am I doing? And what do I really want to do with my life? What does my future look like? And that is where the idea to sell my group practice came from. And so, that happened at the end of 2021 and here I am.

PATRICK CASALE: I appreciate you sharing all that and I know there's a lot of pain and grief in what you just said. And there's a lot to unpack there. And I want to start with like being at an agency job, which is really relatable for a lot of my listeners, and feeling like you're indebted to being there, regardless of how you're treated, how you're paid, how much expectation is placed upon you. And I've said this before, and it sounds like you kind of alluded to this, that it's kind of like an emotionally abusive relationship, and it's toxic, and you're made to feel like they gave you the shot, you owe it to them to stick it out, whether it's for your teammates, your clients, the people who are paying you. And when we so often convince ourselves like we can't leave, look at everything they are doing for me in order for me to have a job and a career.

And I've definitely been there and I also got sick while working in like middle management in a crisis unit, ended up in the hospital and it was just a shit show. And even during those times just feeling like, "But I have to go back, like, I have to answer emails, and I have to answer phone calls that are coming in." And it's like, "Dude, slow the fuck down." And I get the association with that of like, pushing yourself beyond your capacity. And I think helpers so often do that in this field and in all helping fields of like, pushing yourselves beyond your capacity leading to, you know, health challenges, and really mental health struggle, and then, substance use, and all these unhealthy behaviors that come with it in order to just get through the day.

And we see so much of that. And it's so overwhelmingly painful, where we are seeing so many mental health therapists, "I don't want to do this anymore. This profession is just not for me." And I think there are chapters to burnout too because you just mentioned like you left, you created this career for yourself, you're an entrepreneur, you're driving around Denver, which is, you know, exhausting in itself. I've been to Denver once and that was exhausting [INDISCERNIBLE 00:08:23] but exhausting. And like, I think then our mind plays this trick on us. We have this dissonance of like, "This is exhausting, but it's mine." So, it's a different type of exhausting and I can be more okay with it because I'm no longer working for somebody else.

But that does not negate the fact that you're working 30 hours a week plus travel time and doing an intense type of work, and a very valuable one, but one that is ultimately wearing you down day after day.

And did you have that like thought, you're driving around and you're like seeing 30 clients in their homes but like the mentality of, "But this is mine. Like, I created this." And sometimes that creates shamefulness of like, "I dug myself this hole and I don't know how to get out of it."

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: I mean, I look back and I'm like, "How the fuck did I do that?" Like, I just honestly have no idea how I was managing and doing that. Like, it just completely blows my mind. Like, no wonder I was so, so tired.

But one of my favorite very healthy coping techniques is avoidance. And so, I think there was a lot of avoidance and there was a lot of like, "This is just what it is, this is how I'm going to be successful."

I don't come from a family where there were entrepreneurs. Like, nobody in my family really went to college. Like, I'm the only one doing this and I was kind of figuring it all out on my own, which was a good and a bad thing, but I was like, "If I'm going to be successful being self-employed this is what I have to do. I have to push myself. That's what entrepreneurs do, they take risks, and you just got to deal with the next wave that comes and just keep riding those waves. And that's what we need to do."

And I think through my own therapy, thank you to my therapist, she has worked really hard to help me work through a lot of that. And my mindset is so completely changed and different now from what it was, then, and how I think about success because I went through a lot of that, too, when I sold my practice. I had a lot of shame about like, again, "You're a sellout, and you should just stick it out. It sucks that it's hard, but life is hard, you should just keep doing it. This is what you need to do. This is your identity, this is your life." And it's not actually.

And my broker, who also kind of became my therapist, was the one who really laid it out for me. And he was like, "Think of what you want in your life and this is just one stepping stone. This is not everything. This is just one thing in all of the chapters of all the things that you're going to do." So, I had to do a lot of work on that.

PATRICK CASALE: And I like that you name that you have to do a lot of work on that. And I'm sure it still shows up for you. And for those of you listening who are not therapists or are therapists, therapists should be in therapy.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: All throughout your career, whether that's therapy plus consultation, plus supervision, but like, be wary of therapists who do not go to therapy because this stuff impacts every part of our life. And, you know, I can relate to the shamefulness that comes up or the "like sell-out label" as I transitioned out of being a therapist over the last two years, and, you know, at this point in time have only a handful of people on my caseload that I see. And it's not often, like, every other week, potentially, monthly for the folks that I still see. I had all this shame come up of like, "I'm abandoning the profession if I no longer work as a therapist and I'm a therapist coach."

And I sat down with one of my mentors from grad school. She and I get together every once in a while and I'm really grateful for her to be in this area. And I was talking about this and she was like, "I just want you to take a step back and think about the fact that maybe you're not seeing clients, but you are still helping the profession. And if you can help the profession in a different way that can actually impact more clientele than you could ever see in a lifetime."

And for me to hear it that way reframed in that perspective, I was just like, "Damn, yeah, if I can work with all of these therapists getting up and running and supporting their own clients in their own areas of the country, that does have a much bigger ripple effect in a lot of ways." And even now, doing all these talks on neurodiversity, autism, and ADHD, having that ripple effect, again, of like, I can reach so many more people via social media than I could ever do in 60-minute increments of my time.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: I feel the exact same way and my therapist actually said almost the exact same thing to me. So, I had a lot of those feelings, too. I was like, "I'm a loser, and, you know, this is me, and this is what I set out to do, and now, like, I can't do it, and that makes me a failure." And she, like I said, said the almost exact same thing. Like, you can still use your skills, and help people, and reach people in different ways than just meeting with clients for 60 minutes a week, all the time. And yeah, that just has also contributed to part of my burnout as I also kind of switched from doing clinical work.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, as that transition happens you're almost juggling too much again, like saying, "Okay, I've got to juggle this caseload while I transition into something else, but I have to do it simultaneously because if I let this caseload go there it goes with all my money." And then, you're taking on a lot, again, and you're kind of convincing yourself like the light at the end of the tunnel is this, like, ultimate transition where this is no longer my day-to-day.

But in order to get to that, you know, situation, there is a lot of juggling and like your schedule can look like a game of Tetris. And I think it's really important to know, like, we were just talking before we started recording, like self-care is a very privileged statement when we're talking about, like, go take bubble baths, and get massages, and like, go take long vacations when in reality, self-care may be leaving a profession that no longer serves you. Self-care may be completely changing the way you work and move through this world. And that doesn't mean that it is immediate gratification because a lot of self-care is actually quite painful and pretty messy. And I think we often lose sight of that with maybe like, the positive psychology manifestation movement, which I completely don't buy into. But I'm also quite cynical.

And I think we just have to realize, like, burnout prevention is crucial in this helping profession, and just for everybody listening, and it's really about like, how can I be more intentional about how I go through my day? Like, how can I give myself time and space to simply sit with myself for 15, 20 minutes and actually check in with myself instead of like rushing from thing to thing, to thing, which I think we are so conditioned to do in the society that we live in?

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: We totally are and I think I've even seen that too with myself where I'm like, "Oh, I have space on my calendar. I better fill that up with something, I better book a client or make some other appointment that I need to do." And I wish that… and maybe they do now, but when I was getting my degree self-care was kind of like glazed over, which is really surprising to me as a social worker because now it's like one of our code of ethics. But that's a whole different thing. So anyway, it was kind of glazed over, and when we think about self-care, it's like, yeah, light a candle and take a bath. And like, that's how you take care of yourself.

But really how you take care of yourself is knowing what your core beliefs and your core values are, and making sure that your work is aligned with those things, knowing things like what your ideal client is, how you work well, setting boundaries. Like, Polyvagal theory is a thing that I talk about when I'm talking about burnout a lot because it's so integrated. And again, I wish I would have known sooner that like, what starts to happen in my body when I get triggered or when things aren't fitting for me and I need to pay more attention to that.

So, I saw on… Where did I see this? I can't remember who said it now, but somebody said self-care is a privilege and self-regulation is a survival tool. And that just really resonated with me because that's really to me what it's all about.

PATRICK CASALE: I love that and I also love when people I have on say these things that stick out because then I'm like, "Ooh, light bulb, that should be the episode title." Though, yeah, I think that's absolutely correct. And before we started recording you and I were talking about like authenticity and I think that word gets thrown around a lot now, but what I believe authenticity to be is like, again, like you just said, acting in congruence with your values and how you want to show up in this world. And I think when we're not doing that for reasons X, Y, and Z, it can feel really hard to feel like we are connected with who we actually want to be. And then, we're putting all this energy out in terms of like, how do I want to be received or perceived? And if we're not doing that for the right reasons, that can also be really exhausting and cause even more burnout.

And I think when we start to really own that, and like, get in alignment with that, our businesses start to fall into place, our relationships start to fall into place. We can start cutting people out of our lives that we maybe don't feel like are good relationships for us to have. And even though that feels counterintuitive for a lot of people, it is really freeing and really liberating in that way as well.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: Absolutely is. And I try very hard, this doesn't always work, but I try to remember that when I say no it can protect my space or it can bring better things to me that are more in line with what I'm doing because it is hard, and especially, you know if you're trying to build a business or a practice, and you're networking, and you're trying to make all these relationships, it's like, "Oh, I mean, I don't really jive with that person. But you know, we did something like together, we collaborated." And it's like you just have to find, I guess, what works for you, but yes, live in congruence with your values because that is where you're really going to be successful and that's really what it's all about. So, you know, it's, again, a daily thing.

But you know, if you're friends with me on Facebook, you probably see that I post, like, my Zumba videos all the time. And I don't care that people see me twerking, I don't care that people who have worked with see that. Like, that's who I am and that's what I do, so…

PATRICK CASALE: I love that and my immediate reaction is like, I've seen your videos, and then, I think about like how my grandmother who's like 85 is always messaging me on Facebook and is like, "I did Zumba Gold today and it was amazing." But you know, she's a young 85 because of it. But however, I mean, having those things that we actually enjoy, that bring us joy, that have an ability for us to have some social connection that we look forward to absolutely crucial, and having hobbies that we really love and are passionate about, and that can be anything. It doesn't have to look a certain way.

And I think so often we get caught up in like a comparison mindset and trap because of social media. And it can be like so and so is traveling all the time, and look how glamorous that life is. But that life may not work for you for a lot of different reasons. And it really is about, like, really learning who you are, what you need to be regulated and move through this world in a way where you don't feel like every fucking second of your life is just a grind.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: Yes, I also struggle with the comparison. I think we all do, especially, with social media. And it's hard. It's like, oh, well, this person is already talking about burnout, or this person is already doing what I want to do. But it's not me doing it and it's not my story. And my good friend, Andrea, always reminds me when I get sucked into the imposter syndrome and the comparison trap that there is Dunkin, and there's Starbucks, and there's a little coffee shop down the street, and all of them are successful, and people go to them for different reasons.

PATRICK CASALE: Let me just jump in. That's a great analogy. Now, you have the three options. Which one does Gabrielle go to? I'm going to judge you based on your answer, but I need to know.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: Usually, the little coffee shop at the end of the street, but I also am a Starbucks girl because it's closest to my house.

PATRICK CASALE: Okay, I'll just say and I appreciate the honesty. I'm glad that the little coffee shop down the street was number one followed by whatever shitty chain coffee shop exists in the world. I will say when I lived in New York, Dunkin is everywhere, and I actually liked it. Now that I know like what good coffee is and I live in a snobbish city of coffee, food, and beer [CROSSTALK 00:21:58] Dunkin fucking sucks. All right, all of you Dunkin listeners out there, it's just so bad, but I would put Starbucks in a close second to that. But anyway, I don't want to offend my wife or anyone else listening who loves Starbucks.

But in all honesty, if that's what brings you joy every morning, one, I want to get back to your comparison analogy that is perfect. But two, if you do love going to Starbucks, go to fucking Starbucks every day. Though, don't listen to the messaging of like, "We could just get by socially and financially if you didn't go to Starbucks each morning." Like, that is so fucking stupid and that is a conversation for a different day.

But circling back to your analogy of like, Dunkin, Starbucks, and the little coffee shop down the street and all of them being able to be successful, that is so true and falls in alignment with the abundance mindset mentality of like, you could talk about burnout and 200 other therapists could talk about burnout, and it would be unique to each one of you because you all have your own voices and perspectives. And what I am drawn to, and what a lot of people are drawn to is if Gabrielle is talking about burnout, being really real about her story like she just shared earlier in this episode, you're going to be more drawn in because you're like, "Oh, this is what authenticity means and this is what's important for me, someone who's actually relatable and willing to be vulnerable."

And I think that is why certain entrepreneurs are successful is because they're willing, when you mentioned taking risks before, like yes, we do have to take the initial leap and try things that may not work. But what I think is a risk is truly putting yourself out there to the world because so many of us don't. And I always think about this line from A Bronx Tale where he says like, "The saddest thing in the world is wasted talent." And I hear so many people who are so talented that just cannot get through that imposter syndrome and put their idea out to the world. And I think that is sometimes painful to witness when you see how someone has such a gift, but just cannot overcome that.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: It is really painful and I get it. It's a struggle that one of my friends who's also my mentor, she works in a totally different field, and is also an entrepreneur, and it's been nice to have somebody who's not a therapist talk to me about this. It's good to have a different perspective, but she says the same thing. She's like, "You know, you can't think that way, and think about all of the discomfort and uncertainty that you've been through Gabrielle, and like you leaned into it, and look what has come from it." So, I don't do that, you know, recklessly, but I do think about, like, how I was like sleeping on my friend's couches in college because I couldn't afford rent. And like all of the things that I've been through and like where I'm at now and where I will continue to go if I am just open to it and if I just continue to put myself out there and do what is meaningful to me, then I think that the right people and the right things will come into my life.

PATRICK CASALE: That's beautifully said and I agree 100%. And I think our stories shape us. And if we're willing to embrace them and just talk about them openly, I think that makes a big difference because it offers a different perspective for people to see that you can have all of these struggles and still work through them and be successful.

And, you know, I often reflect back to like my own traumatic childhood experiences, trauma experiences, being an act of addiction for half of my life. Well, that's an overstatement. I wasn't gambling when I was four. But like, you know, up until 2012 and 10 years, as of today, I just think about how these things have shaped us and the resiliency that exists in the human spirit of like, we have gone through and endured a lot, and so many people more so than I have, you know, just due to my privilege in general, yet people still show up, and still try, and strive to be creative, and pursue their goals, and their dreams. And I think that's a really beautiful thing to witness and I feel very honored to have had that experience with so many therapists and entrepreneurs over the last couple of years.

But I reflect back to starting this business two and… August of 2020, so this August will be two years, and thinking like at that time, "Will any of this be successful?" And I never foresaw sitting here on a podcast, or speaking at conferences, or having a following. I was just like, "Can I help therapists start and build their businesses?" And, you know, it's just wild when you start to move through the imposter syndrome that exists and shows up for us to see what you can accomplish once you can move through that mindset, paralyzation, and that perfectionism that comes up.

You and I were talking last week before I spoke in that Nashville conference, and you spoke at the summit in Utah and we were both experiencing imposter syndrome and like, is this going to be good? Are people going to think it sucks? Do I even know what I'm talking about? Which is every day of my life.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: Same, same.

PATRICK CASALE: But being able to feel it, and do it anyway, and also put it out into the world, I think is just different from those who experience it, and then, never ever move through it.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: Yeah, and that is sad and painful that like you are letting that take over your entire life and well-being, and that you're just going to sit and be comfortable, or maybe uncomfortable instead of taking a little bit of a risk or trying something different. Actually, at the summit in Utah, Katie Reed spoke, and she was talking about how imposter syndrome like doesn't go away. It just sits in the sidecar and it rides along with you. So, that was another mindset change for me that has been helpful too. And you know, just always remembering that it can be both things at the same time.

PATRICK CASALE: My favorite therapists phrase is, both things can be true at the same time. My clients are probably like, "Shut the fuck up." But it is true, right? Like, that can exist, that imposter syndrome can be there, that self-doubt, that inner criticism can be there. But the more you work through it, the less amplified it is, the less loud it is. It still exists, you can see it in the corner, it's kind of ugly. And you know, I use the reference of like Gollum from Lord of the Rings is what my imposter syndrome looks like. But at the same time, the more you put it out into the world, the more you own the fact that you experience it, it has less control over you. And I think that step is really hard for some people to just be like, open and honest about, "Hey, I'm struggling with this."

And that has always been who I've been, I've just been like, this is how I'm experiencing the world, and this is a struggle. And I think that has served me really well in terms of like being able to create and be successful because like, when I was on stage in Nashville, and I was up there at first, and I'm like, "I know what I'm talking about." Right? Like, you're talking about neurodiversity, and you are neurodiverse, and this is your day-to-day, and I'm still feeling like, "I don't know what I'm talking about."

But then what I did immediately was just be like, "All right, I'm here in the Not Your Typical Psychotherapy Conference. I am so fucking nervous right now. I've been nervous all day. You've seen me pacing around the hotel and like not able to speak to any of you. And here we are, right? And like this is real." And then, I saw a lot of like head nodding and a lot of like laughter, and I was like, "All right, here we go." And then, you can drop into it, and just like, I think owning the experience, whether we "like label it good or bad" is really important. And the things that we label and define as bad emotion also really serve a purpose in a positive way.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: I did the same thing. It was like, I'm here, and I'm so scared, and I've been nervous all day, and I can't sleep and I'm like freaking out. But you just have to do it. I mean, when I told my mom that I was speaking at that conference, she was like, "There is no way you're doing that. You used to cry when you had to public speak in school and pretend you were sick." I failed public speaking twice, by the way, in college because it was so terrifying. But I was like, "This is the only way that I can grow, and that I can help people, and maybe people can relate to this still." So, you do have to just got to lean into it, that's the only way, and also, have a really fabulous outfit that helped me.

PATRICK CASALE: I don't know if I had a really fabulous outfit.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: You did, I saw it.

PATRICK CASALE: But what did help me is, you know, I had this friend group who sat in the front of the room. And I was locking my eyes on them for like affirmation and validation for the first couple of minutes, so then it kind of felt like I'm just speaking to my friends about what I speak about to them all the time. And then, like dropping in and feeling more comfortable, and just owning your personality, and like how you move through the world, I think it's important. And, you know, it's almost like exposure therapy, right? Like, you're putting yourself in a position that you know is horrifying. But the more you do it, the less horrifying it becomes.

And for any of you listening, it doesn't have to be big steps. It doesn't have to be go speak at a conference tomorrow, or start a course, or a podcast, it can simply just be putting out to the world, "I want to eventually do this thing, I want to start a business, I want to start a private practice, I want to start a group practice." It doesn't matter what it is, but if you can put it out to the world, get it out of your head, it really allows it to be much more manageable instead of feeling like this distant pipe dream that is just never going to become a reality.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: It always seems that way. Like, I never thought that I would sell my business. I didn't think that that was something I could do or that people even cared about. I never thought that I would move to Florida and have a pool in my backyard. Like, all of these things seem unattainable, but they're not. They're really not.

And so, I hope that, hopefully, this conversation gave some people a little bit of inspiration or a push to do something that they've been thinking of and you just have to be yourself. I mean, even like kind of going back to the imposter syndrome and like speaking, and being yourself up there. I spoke right after somebody who, she was amazing, like such a good speaker, and I was like, "Fuck, Megan, why did you put me after her? Like, I don't have that."

And also, part of what this person was talking about was like, she doesn't curse, and that's not part of her brand. And I was like, "Oh, well, now I'm fucked because I say fucking shit like every other word, and she's going to judge me. She didn't judge me, by the way. But these were just like the thoughts that I was having. But again, I'm like, this is me, and this is who I am. And I just need to show up. And that's all I could do.

PATRICK CASALE: That's perfectly said. And in that Nashville conference, Laura Long had gone earlier in the day, Ajita Robinson had gone earlier in the day, Katie Keaps, me and myself were going at the same time. And at first, my room was pretty empty. And I was like, "Yeah, everyone is in Katie's conversation." And that's fine, Katie's a friend, she's wonderful. And then, people started trickling in, and my room was full. And I was like, "Why does it matter either way and at the end of the day, whether it was 10 people or 150…" Which is what it turned out to be, "…you still gave the same talk. The message was still the same, the presentation was equally as powerful."

So, I want everyone to hear that. Like, it doesn't matter and we can get into that mindset all day of someone's going to do it better, someone did it differently, someone was "more professional than me" because I get it all the time. I curse all the time and I joke about the emails I get now from people who are like, "I love your content. It's helped me build my business for free, but you curse too much, and it's lazy and unprofessional." And I'm like, "You know, you can hit unsubscribe, and then, never be subjected to my lazy unprofessional ways ever again."

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: Exactly.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:34:22] your business for free.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: But in all seriousness, if all of you can embrace who you are as human beings, whether you curse a lot, whether you show up and say certain things, whether you're quirky and weird, and own your personality, it really does not matter. You are going to attract and repel based on what you put out into the world. And not everyone is going to like you and that is okay because we don't exist in echo chambers. I don't think we want to.

So, I hope this conversation was helpful. And you know, Gabrielle, I appreciate you coming on, and sharing your story, and being fun vulnerable enough to do so. And I'm excited to just stay connected and see where your career takes you. And hopefully, that you and I are both in Costa Rica in January.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: We're going to be there.

PATRICK CASALE: So, just tell everyone that's listening where they can find more of what you're offering and how to find you. And all of that information will also be in the show notes for everyone that's listening.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: I don't have a website right now, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Instagram. And everything is the same, it's my full name, Gabrielle Juliano-Villani. And you can connect with me that way. If you want to talk to me more about doing some consulting or coaching, you can book with me on Calendly and it's just calendly.com/gabriellejv, and we can book a discovery call and talk more.

PATRICK CASALE: Great, thank you for that. And again, that will all be in the shownotes. If you want to work with me on coaching, consulting, growing your business working through your imposter syndrome and perfectionism, if you want to come to any of my retreats, I have one in Ireland in March, and one in Barcelona in May.

Listen to the All Things Private Practice Podcasts on all major platforms. Download, like, subscribe and share, and doubt yourself, do it anyway. New episodes out every Sunday morning and we will see you next week. Thank you so much.

GABRIELLE JULIANO-VILLANI: Thanks, Patrick.