Episode 89: Pushing Boundaries Through Liberatory Leadership [featuring Shawna Murray-Browne]

Show Notes

There are many mental health professionals who step into entrepreneurship so that they can shape a business around the needs they see in their community.

It can be a challenging, controversial, and personal road to take, but the impact of building a business around your specific calling can leave a strong and lasting impact on the communities you serve.

As much as living in authenticity and embracing your values can empower and support communities, it can also mean losing people in your life.

If you want to create a business that embraces and embodies authenticity, your values, and liberatory leadership, then this episode is for you.

In this episode, I speak with Shawna Murray-Browne, LCSW, owner of Kindred Wellness, consultant and coach on liberatory leadership in organizations, private practices, etc.

Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode:

1. Understand what liberatory leadership is and why it is so important to embrace it.
2. Hear Shawna's powerful personal story about entrepreneurship and her role in empowering liberatory leadership in organizations.
3. Learn how to use liberatory leadership to show up as your authentic self, promote love, and challenge colonialism, oppression, and racism in your business.

When you step up to do the work of liberation-focused healing, it doesn't always feel good, and it can be tempting to find the escape route from all of it. It's important to take the time to slow down and allow yourself to not have all the answers, and work together to figure out answers through community, relationships, and love.

More about Shawna:

Shawna Murray-Browne, LCSW-C is an award-winning community healer, professional speaker, and Liberation-Focused, Mind-Body Medicine Practitioner. She is the Principal Consultant at Kindred Wellness LLC and trained as an integrative psychotherapist. Shawna is curious about what happens when we question colonial thinking and make space for indigenous ways of knowing in every aspect of life. 

In her hometown of Baltimore City, Shawna is known for holding grassroots healing circles to equip Black families and change-makers with the tools to heal themselves. Others know her best for her training intensive, Decolonizing Therapy for Black Folk, where she co-creates space for deconstructing and reimagining mental health care as we know it.

Shawna works at the intersection of healing, ancestral wisdom, and deep support for organizations, corporations, and everyday humans seeking liberation. Her clients have included human service and political advocacy organizations, foundations, and universities. Intuitive, authentic, and high energy, she is committed to helping communities reclaim collective wisdom to triumph over the effects of historic and present-day trauma. Shawna was named by The Huffington Post as one of the “Ten Black Female Therapists You Should Know,” featured on the PBS special Mysteries of Mental Illness, and was a two-time guest on the popular, Therapy for Black Girls podcast.

She is a doctoral candidate at the University of Maryland, School of Social Work where she gained her Master of Social Work. Her dissertation explores oral histories as a site of inquiry around the healing ways of Black women advocates during the civil rights movement.  She earned a Bachelor of Science in Criminology and Family Science from the University of Maryland, College Park. She serves on the Advisory Board of Cllctivly, serves on the Trauma Informed Care Task Force for the City of Baltimore, and is a former Minority Fellow for the Council on Social Work Education and SAMSHA. 

Dedicated to continued growth, her practice in QiGong, African spiritual traditions, and sitting at the feet of elders maintain. She lives in Baltimore with her husband and her five-year-old daughter.

Pronouns: She/Her/Hers

Website: www.shawnamurraybrowne.com 

Instagram: @HealASista

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawnamurraybrowne/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/shawnambrowne

Kindred Wellness LLC is a race equity and community healing consultancy informed by the historic and present-day wisdom of Black folk. Organizations are supported in building relationships while demystifying anti-racist and anti-colonial ideals. This groundwork supports the development of potent strategies that illuminate a way to transform.

Community healing initiatives are central to the mission of Kindred Wellness and is the epitome of Shawna’s liberation-focused healing framework in action. From healing circles, curricula, learning communities and a directory for community care, radical imagination is kindled, and movement work is fortified.

Check out Shawna's offer:

Shawna would like to invite folks to get on the waitlist for Decolonizing Therapy for Black Folks—a virtual learning experience curated for mental health and wellness professionals of all backgrounds, serving the Black community with the intention to liberate. In an effort to meet the needs expressed by communities of African descent across the country, this training holds space for exploring emancipatory healing in the therapy space. The content explored centers on the needs of Descendants of Africans enslaved in the U.S., however, the concepts are applicable to offering liberatory therapeutic space for clients of all of the African Diaspora. Participants in this workshop will analyze the impact of systemic oppression in the maintenance of mental health professions, explore the Liberation-Focused Healing framework, and contend with the process of acknowledging the impact of oppressive systems on our worldview and clinical identity.

🎙️Listen to more episodes of the All Things Private Practice Podcast here
🎙️Spotify
🎙️Apple
🎙️YouTube Music
▶️ YouTube
✈️ Check out available Retreats
🗨️ Join the free Empowered Escape FB Community
🗨️ Join the free All Things Private Practice FB Community 

A Thanks to Our Sponsor: The Receptionist for iPad!

The Receptionist for iPad:

I would also like to thank The Receptionist for iPad for sponsoring this episode.

As you prepare for the new year as a private practice owner, one area of your business where you might be able to level up your client experience is from the moment that they enter your office and check in with you. For many private practices, the client check-in process can be a bit awkward and confusing.

Clients often enter into an empty waiting room. And chances are you're wrapping up a session with someone else, so there's no way of knowing when they arrive. With a visitor management system like The Receptionist for iPad, you can provide clients with a discreet and secure way to check in for their appointment while instantly being notified of their arrival.

What's more, The Receptionist offers an iPad list check-in option where clients can scan a QR code to check in, which negates the need for you to buy an iPad and stand. Go to thereceptionist.com/privatepractice and sign up for a free 14-day trial. When you do, you'll get your first month free. And don't forget to ask about our iPad list check-in option.

Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone, you're listening to another episode of the All Things Private Practice Podcast. I'm your host, Patrick Casale, joined today by Shawna Murray-Browne. She is an LCSW, and the owner of Kindred Wellness, and a consultant, trainer, really amazing human being. And we are going to talk about liberatory leadership today, we're going to talk about modeling, we're going to talk about showing up, and authenticity, and all the things that come with it. So, thanks for coming on and just making the time. 

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Thanks for having me, Patrick. 

PATRICK CASALE: We could have been recording, like, while we were talking before we started this, and lots of good stuff coming out of that. And I wanted to talk, like, you are in the midst of a dissertation, and your Ph. D. program, and doing all the things, and consulting with organizations. And I want to let you take over and, you know, tell us a little bit about why this feels like such a big passion for you right now in your life and what's going on. And let's see where this goes.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Yeah, thanks for that lead-in. So, when I think of liberatory leadership, I really think it's a really solid summation of what I have been learning through life, primarily, in my entrepreneurial experience, but I do think that it is related on all aspects. 

When I started Kindred Wellness, and I guess it was like 12 years ago, I started it while working as a social worker in child welfare. I was doing sex abuse investigations. And I really, really hated it. And before I was doing that I was in family preservation. On the side, I was doing grass root organizing work to like shut down prisons here in the city of Baltimore. And my work, Kindred Wellness really came out of me responding to what I saw was a need, what was like absent, and the work that I was doing, and community. And at that time, there weren't spaces for black girls and their mothers to be able to sort of remember how to heal themselves, right?

And that was the beginning of my business, right? I had been an entrepreneur many times before, you know, braiding hair, making necklaces, you know, babysitting, okay? Like, I was a serial entrepreneur, but this felt different because it was so deeply connected to, like, my own personal development. 

And so, when I think about, like, 12, 13 years ago and now, you know, I feel like our businesses and our life, and especially, in my work, during the time that I was actively an integrative psychotherapist, everything is a mirror, right? Like, we're called to model back. It's almost to like communicate with the universe about how developed, like, did you learn the lesson from a decade ago now? Like, you have the tools. 

And so, the people that I'm holding space, for now, are practitioners, mental health providers, healers, change makers, or organizers. You know, we're talking about liberatory practices all the time when we're talking about how to do therapy from a decolonial way, and then, when I'm partnering with organizations and nonprofits, most of the folks that I have the honor of holding space for are at organizations where black, and brown, and indigenous people are at the helm and they're making radical change, but they're guiding. So, a community of leaders, and everybody is, can I cuss on here? Okay, like, everybody is, like, fucked up about it. It's a shit storm. Like, it is bringing up a lot of people's trauma. 

And so, as I was doing my workaround, like, what does it mean to create a liberatory private practice? What does it mean to navigate oppressive systems from a liberatory perspective? What does it mean to run a nonprofit from a liberatory and antiracist perspective. The thing is, you could talk about the organization without talking about being the person guiding and walking through the work, that's liberatory leadership, and so, it's coming back up for me, and my business, and all the things I'm seeing reflected back.

PATRICK CASALE: That's a really incredible journey and I love there's so many, one, I just love that kind of cuss on here, so I [CROSSTALK 00:04:58]-

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: You know because I just knew it was about to come out, I was like, "Oh, oh, this is authenticity for me, Patrick."

PATRICK CASALE: That's authenticity [INDISCERNIBLE 00:05:05] right? And that's exactly what we encourage here. And, you know, it's beautiful to see, like, what you mentioned as an entrepreneur is we kind of create what we need, we kind of create what we see, and what we feel passionate about. 

And being able to see that journey through the last 12 years starting with like the community mental health, and recognizing, like, there's so much need here, but the resource isn't there, or the information, or education isn't here yet. And then, creating around what you're seeing in your community, and globally, too. 

And you and I talked a couple of weeks ago just about the last couple of years, and how fucking hard they've been, especially, on the BIPOC community, and just the recognition of like, you're creating this thing that there's going to be a lot of polarization around, there's going to be a lot of emotion, there's going to be a lot of trauma, there's going to be a lot of stuff that comes up. And I'm just curious about, like, your role in that, and holding that space, and how that impacts you as you guide, and lead, and show up for the people that you're helping.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Yeah, so my role in that and how, okay. So, I have to say, for me, before the last three years my work has always been polarizing. But the extent to which I felt comfortable being my full self and being seen at the same time at my work had changed, right? 

And so, the last three years, specifically, feels like a mirror from 2015 when the uprising here in the city of Baltimore around Freddie Gray took place. And so, still vastly different because we had the overlay of COVID-19 and the complete shutdown. But still, you know when I think of the last three-ish years, I'm thinking about COVID, but I'm mostly thinking about the public lynching of black men, right? And then, it's like that is the anchor, and then, what's happening around that. 

And so, the suffocating experience of not knowing what's going to happen next, the fear around how long do we have together. Like, meaning, like, just in the world? For me, 2015 and 2020 just sort of mirrored. Like, I feel like I like a man repeat, but like it's amplified, it's more intense. 

And so, my role, centrally, has been, first, returning to myself, returning the presence for myself, and figuring out what my capacity is to hold space for others, and how to communicate that. Like, what are boundaries from a liberatory perspective, where I'm also contending with my own personal freedom. Like, I'm also contending with my own personal healing. Like, how do we hold liberation for everybody and freedom for the self within like this really fucked up capitalistic, and a whole bunch of other listics problems? Like, what is that? 

And so, I always begin at my reflection and my holding space for other people with where do I need to first hold space for myself so that, like, what I'm holding up for other folks isn't distorted or can be the clearest it can be. And I'm transparent, I'm holding it up, they can see themselves, and then, I am transparent, you know? And I know that what I'm going to share back isn't going to be, you know, trauma spillover, but perhaps reflection. It's going to be coming out of a space of love and usefulness, but now I need to be seen.

PATRICK CASALE: That's really powerful, especially, that last statement of the, "Oh, I need to be seen." Because I think there's a lot of performative nature in a lot of leaders too, especially, from leaders who look like me, who have the privilege that I have, and over the last couple of years seeing the rise in necessity to be outspoken, to be anti-oppressive, to be showing up from a liberatory leadership perspective. 

And I think that also comes with conflict, that comes with, you know, am I able to show up and understand that by being outspoken about values, that means we may turn people off, that may mean we lose people, that may mean that it's not always "good for our businesses" in some perspectives. And I think that is what leadership means, right? Is like doing hard things and being able to absorb both the positive and the negative. It's understanding that leadership means showing up in the thickest and hardest of times. And also, knowing that there may be fallout based upon where you decide-

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: There will be.

PATRICK CASALE: There will be fallout. There will be fallout and that's what I think the definition of leadership is, is when you stand up for what you believe to be right, and where your values are aligned and are anchored in.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Yeah. What comes up for me, there are a few things that came up for me as you were sharing. One of them was, you know, that there's fallout because of polarization and there's fallout because…. sometimes there's fallout because it's polarization and folks just aren't interested in being rooted in a liberatory reality, and you have to just be like, "All right, you know, here's the boundary, and this isn't it." And there's fallout because in relationship there's fallout period, right? 

I had the honor of holding space for an organization I've been serving for, I think we're on year four and a half, right? I think we're on year four and a half now, maybe five. And so, this is pre-pandemic to now, but we were still just creating like deep connection, and a sense of safety with each other, and then, the pandemic came in and shook that up. 

And while I was holding space for this group of leaders, this executive team, I was guiding them through a process they hadn't been through before. My role somewhat changed over time, at first, I was working with just the advocates and the service providers, the grass root folk. And then, it shifted to me offering support for the executive team. 

And they had not ever had conversations about collective agreements, and how they were going to be together with each other, and what authenticity looks like. And when I was holding space for this conversation, one of the leaders, she was a white woman, and she said, "I mean, I don't know if I should just think that like we just don't trust each other, like, do we have trust issues?" And you know, she was saying, like, "Oh, shit. Like, we've been working together all this time and we don't trust each other." And I was just like, "Absolutely. You all have been working together this whole time and you all don't trust each other because you all are in a relationship but haven't invested and cultivated trust and relationship, cultivating authenticity, or defining what that is, and creating safety with each other, and many folks don't." Right?

And so, when we're thinking about like that fallout that happens in our businesses, sometimes it's in our businesses, sometimes it's with the people we're serving. It's also fallout because we have to put more time in for the emotions that come up when we're triggered. It's like, that's just it Right? 

And so, like, that came up for me is right? Like, we have to also recognize that not all fallout is because people aren't about the work, some fallout is because we're still learning how to love each other and love usually isn't allowed in business, right? Or not allowed, really, it's not acceptable. It's against the status quo to actually truly give a fuck about the people you're working with. And there's not a model for how to do that when you're also trying to survive a capitalist system, make profit so that you can live a thriving life, right? Those things are not usually holding hands, right?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's so true. I mean, the ability to truly care about each other's well-being, and safety, and mental health, and just the ability to get needs met versus making money off of the work that someone's doing. I think that's a really challenging line to walk for a lot of people, even with the best of intentions, and there's a lot of, like you said, that love has to be created and fostered, and that trust and safety has to be created and fostered. Then that means having difficult conversations sometimes, right?

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: And being wrong.

PATRICK CASALE: And being wrong.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: You have to be piloting some shit and that shit failing, right? Like, anything liberatory, anything liberatory, yes, folks have been doing it for centuries, yes, we can call on the multiplicity of, like, radical traditions of doing things, right? And it's always going to be different. And so, everything is a pilot, right? While we're working, when we're trying to co-create liberatory practice and way of doing things. And so, we're going to, we're going to fuck up, we're going to hurt each other, we're going to learn more about, you know, our money trauma, we're going to learn more about how we feel safe or unsafe, depending on how much money is generated or not, right? Or how much exchange is happening, right? Yeah, so that's all up in our business, Patrick, every day.

PATRICK CASALE: Do you think, and I feel like this could be like a really obvious answer for me to even ask, but the reason so many people shy away from doing this type of work is because the inevitable fuckup that's going to be happening, and the inevitable fallout that happens. So, it's like, if I just avoid this, if we don't have these conversations then we never have to go down that road of the fuckup, or the failure, or the fallout, or the conflict.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Absolutely. Like, actually, let me read that part, don't edit this out, abso-fucking-lutely, right? Like, try deciding, hey, I'm going to try to honor humanity and reconsider adequate reciprocity in a system that wasn't created for that, even though our notion of business was inherently oppressive, right? And so, it is so much easier to do what everyone else has done to gain "success" as success is, you know, amassing a certain amount of coins, right? Like, it's so much easier to do what everyone else is doing as the tried and true way because it's almost… okay, so you know, and trauma work, right?

One of the underlying things that is a really important practice is to let the folks we're holding space for know what we're doing before we do it, know what to expect, right? When you work for a company that is not particularly liberatory, maybe they got some social justice, you know, statements in there, but they're not actually looking to embody anything decolonial. You know what to expect, right? This is what you're getting paid, this is the way it's going to be. We're not doing all that emotion shit, keep that at home, that's private. You know what I'm saying? You know what professionalism is, right? 

So, the status quo in that regard, while it is harmful to us, and has historically been, it is also safer because it's what we've become accustomed to and used to. And when we decide not only for ourselves as the leaders making the sort of ultimate decision, but the leaders we're working with, right? Or the folks that are walking into their definition of leadership, we're also saying, hey, so I'm sort of building this plane, I'm repairing it as we're going up, we're going to change the shape of the wings so don't we don't crash while, like, you're literally changing the fabric of how we do business, how we engage, how we guide, and it is like no one has mastered it. And so, it is absolutely scary as shit.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I firmly believe in that imperfect action of build the plane as you fly it and figuring it out as you go. But I understand what you're saying of saying, you have to kind of go against the status quo if you're going to be willing to move into more of a liberatory leadership, anti-oppressive lens, and that you're going to have to kind of buck the system in that regard of like, this is how we run a business, this is how we treat employees, this is how we kind of create culture that we have. And I think that's where a lot of people get it wrong, the inability to try to think differently, or outside the box, or see things from a different lens. And I can see the challenges in that too. 

And so, you kind of moved into this anti-oppressive de-colonialism-based therapy practice consulting [CROSSTALK 00:20:07] during the last couple of years, and I'm just curious about like, you know, obviously, I totally see the need for that, I think it's imperative, but what prompts that? We're seeing all this, you know, all this murder on TV of young black men by the police, we have the fuckin Donald Trump presidency going on at the same time. There's a lot of shit going on. And then, it sounds like that's where you were like, I need to show up, this is the need that I'm seeing. I need for people to really get this right.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Yeah, let's talk about it. Okay, so remember when I said like, I might have been doing the work, but I wasn't okay with being seen broadly doing the work. And so, I would say that my experiences, my initial experiences with receiving therapy were mostly atrocious. And not like, well, maybe once, I was going to say not like blatant racism, but that's not true. I felt like I was the threat, but there's a couple of, sort of, I'll call them watershed moments for me that was preparing me, or, you know, sort of showing me that this was my work. 

And so, the first time, I will say, was probably when I was in undergrad, shout out to all the [PH 00:21:30] taps, all right, is when I was in undergrad and I was studying criminal justice, criminology, criminal justice, and family science. And I was, like, in a class, and we were reviewing for an exam, and there were a series of lectures I intentionally missed. And those were the lectures about drug policy. And that was because it was triggering for me because my mother struggles and has struggled with addiction. And the way that folks would talk about black folks struggling with addiction was triggering for me and made me want to punch people in the face. So, I intentionally missed those classes. 

And so, we were reviewing for an exam at the end of the semester, and the professor… there was no way for me to know when we were going to review that section of the course, right? For this exam. And he was reviewing it, and I was like, I'm very sure this would meet the criteria for PTSD, you know? Basically, I had a flashback of my mother sort of doing drugs, and I left the class, and then, did not show up for my exam. Bad idea, okay? Bad idea. 

And so, I went to the cultural center on campus at the University of Maryland called the Nyumburu Cultural Center, and I spoke to one of the leaders there because I was in there crying, like, "Oh, my goodness, not only am I triggered, I'm about to fail this class." Right? And I don't do fail, right? Because perfectionism 5000. 

And so, what he did is he sent me to the walk-in time for therapy for students to gain therapy. It was like people of color, sort of, like therapy walk-in. I'm not going to tell you all how many years ago that was. Just know I'm a millennial, okay? So, that's it. That's all you all need to know. You don't need to know whether or not I'm older or the younger one, I'm a millennial. 

So, they had POC like walk-in or maybe it was black football or whatever. I went, I spoke to this therapist, I think it was a psychologist, black man, Harvard-trained. Why do I know that? Because his, like, degree and license was biggest day over his desk. And I guess he was trying to help me when he was like, "Okay, so tell me what's going on." And I was like, "Can you tell me who you are? Hi, what's your favorite color? Where you from? Like, can we build something?" Like, I'm not about to tell you on my business? Like, I'm going to need you to, like, connect with me. 

And he was like, "That's not what we're doing here, right? Like, I'm here to help you. I'm an expert. You're going to tell me your problems, I'm going to tell you how to fix it." And I was like, "We're not about to do this shit." And so, like, I left. Thankfully, I was able to sit for my exam still after just communicating authentically with my professor. But that was like the first experience where I was like, "This is trash, right?" And this was undergrad. So, I was not nobody's therapist. I was still loud about problematic things, but I was like, "This is trash." 

The second time would probably have been after two times. You know, one was after my brother was murdered while incarcerated and I could not find a therapist. I was a social worker at the time and therapist. I couldn't find a therapist that didn't know me because I was training others. And the way that my colleagues were responding to me was almost like they were afraid to engage with me because, like, the huge public, very, like, horrible sort of traumatic experience. And nobody really knew how to engage with me at that time. So, that.

And then, the last would be after I had my daughter. She had spent some time in the hospital. We wasn't sure she was going to make it. She had bacterial meningitis. And like, I knew I needed therapy because I was like if she don't make it we're leaving. Like, I was like, I'm going to hurt myself. Like, I'm not leaving out here without my baby. 

And again, I had to ask the social worker, "Hey, I'm a social worker. I need a skilled therapist, please because this is not okay. And I didn't have health insurance at the time, went to a therapist through a nonprofit that was offering free therapy, got myself a nice white racist woman who was like, "Oh, you weren't thinking of like hurting your baby? You're fine." I'm like, "No, I'm a professional. I'm a mental health delegate, I'm not fine." And she was just so dismissive, that I was like, "This is trash." 

And so, those particular experiences from the time that I was an undergrad, which was over a decade, like, right? That's when I started my initial awareness. A couple years after that I graduated, went got my MSW, thought it was super racist. Was like this was problematic, altered my clinical practices, and that's when I started studying privately, right? 

So, this would be about 10 years ago, 10, 12. Okay, now, you all going to know, I was, okay. 12 years ago is when I started my business, I started my private practice 10 years ago, right? And so, 10 years ago is when I started to apply the liberatory practices. I was doing my personal work. I was studying liberatory ideologies. I was doing my healing work myself. And that's how I altered my clinical work. 

But it wasn't until reflecting on my time in college, having the time after my brother was killed, and my colleagues not knowing how to engage with me, and subsequently having this time when I really needed support, and not being able to get access to it, that I was like, "Oh, I have to do it." Like, after I get myself together, after I go and utilize my own frameworks for my own healing practice I have got to increase the population of folks that understand that this liberatory work is needed. 

So, I was doing that teaching and that work. My daughter is five, so I was doing, and my brother was killed seven, eight years ago. So, I've been teaching liberatory practices for about seven years. The pandemic just put that on like hyperdrive. I was doing the trainings, but only for like 20 people in Baltimore, you know? Small consultation folks did not want to pay me, okay? They wanted to do one workshop and be done. It used to piss me off. I was like, "Nobody wants to do that." I was like, "What the fuck, we can't go deep and two hour's gone, we can't."

And so, like, that's what I was dealing with, like, seven, eight years ago, with folks being like, "Okay, I know, you have this series of 15 hours. Oh, we got $500. Can you come up for two hours?" And I would just be like, "Fine." Right? 

And so, the pandemic, unfortunately, fortunately, made me have to put the teachings in a way where people could access it virtually. And that's how the turn-up happened. Folks learned of the way that George Floyd's life was taken, and subsequently amplified my work. So, I'd been doing it for a while. It's always been necessary. And there's been others that have been doing it, but I've been doing this particular work for a while, but it only was amplified three years ago. I know that was a long story, Patrick.

PATRICK CASALE: I mean, it's captivating because I mean, I just appreciate you being willing to share it, and just to put it out there, and I'm sure you have before, but I mean, I haven't heard it so I appreciate your willingness to do that. And there's so much to unpack there. And I'm just thinking about those experiences and how those experiences are not rare, right? Like, the experiences that you had along the way in seeking out your own support and therapeutic journey. 

And I'm thinking about, like, my wife who has a hard time finding people who look like her. And even when that's the case, like, still being able to trust that you're going to build rapport and connection, you're going to like, not just jump right into the clinical diagnosis part and like, the ability to practice in a way where we're taking culture into consideration, and it has to come to the forefront, and not just saying, like, we're going to use evidence-based practices, we're going to do these things. And I'm not going to share anything about myself, and like, all the fucking bullshit that we see. 

But like, I mean, it's just incredible to say that that journey has taken you to where it's taken you to say, I know that we need this. So, even in my time of grief, and suffering, and struggle, I'm going to show up and do this fucking work. 

And the other thing that stands out for me is the, yeah, I just want to take your two-hour course or like, you know, do this thing and be done with it. And I almost equate that to like, just checking the box, right? Like, of just like, and I talked to you about this when you and I met a couple of weeks ago of just like, putting out there that like we're anti-racist practice and we support the Black Lives Matter movement, and like, that's kind of it, and here's this recording and like, do it at your own pace, and let's go on our way. And it's almost the equivalency too, in grad school of taking that one cultural diversity class and saying, like, I'm [CROSSTALK 00:31:53]- 

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: So, this work is lifelong, right? Like, this can't stop and this can't just simply be a three-hour requirement for you to be able to then say, this is how I practice, this is how I show up in the world. 

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Yeah, the through point for that is that it shifted, right? Like we went from, okay, we'll talk about antiracist social work for two hours, you know? Or I'll take for like, as, like, jeopardy, like, give me liberatory practices for 100, please, right? Essentially. 

And we went from there to binging, that's how I would describe it. I would describe, particularly, our world, right? Of mental health wellness, self-care, coaching all of that. We binged, that's what I observed and watched, and that's what I was responding to and being asked for, opportunities for binging. And I was saying, "Let's go slower." While also my body was saying, "I don't want to talk about the shit no more, I'm going to get it out, and like, you take it or leave it right?"

So, there's always this multiplicity of things happening for us as leaders when we're sharing something really deep with ourselves because I was also deeply triggered by the entire existence of the pandemic. Like, literally, it just brought up all the things from the murder of my brother. Every time a black man is killed I'm like not okay, or I have to decide to disassociate, right? 

And so, we watched folks that go from checking the box to, "I'm ready now." And to, "Okay, now what now? Tell me what to do now. Okay, I need it now. I need you to show me how to do it."

And now I felt like we passed the big hump, you know, of… and people didn't want to binge, and not everyone was, I think most people were genuine in it. Like, it felt urgent and many people transformed in their understanding because it was binging, but it was also the focus, right? Like, I binge Haarlem on Amazon, all right? Like, I'll watch all the seasons, I understand I'm getting it. And now, it's sort of like, "All right, I'm tired. I don't really…" We're back to the checkbox, right? And it's a different kind of checkbox. You know, it's we're responding to, you know, a lack of funding, a lack of interest in how to create capacity for longevity. And the way that I'm responding to that is to say, hey, I want to go deep and not wide, I'm tired of being used in this particular way. It's going to hurt me, it's going to hurt me, right? And my business to make that decision because it's not what's hot, and popping, and in market right now, right? Doing a deep 16-hour training, and then, committing for the rest of the year to do deep work with your team isn't the top of anyone's line item in the midst of folks thinking that the pandemic no longer exists whilst also dancing with recession, right?

And so, what it's done for me is showing me why it's so important for me to consistently be with myself so that I am not reading others interests and taking whatever I have to offer as a dehumanizing process, right? I have to remember, oh, I see everyone in their trauma response, our collective trauma, right? I see us all sort of reacting in this way. How can I as a leader not take it personally? That means I have to be personal, I have to get personal with myself. What is coming up for me? How is this? What is this showing me I still needed to come in with?

PATRICK CASALE: Usually, when I'm on these, I have like rapid-fire thoughts. But right now, I'm just taking in what you're saying. And I think it sounds like when you're getting really intentional and real with yourself about what do you need out of this, that there's some sacrificing there and acknowledging like, I acknowledge that for me I need to have people who are willing to show up for the year, and really do the deep work, with the acknowledgment of that means I'm sacrificing over here, financially, and all these other things that I could do in shorter spurts. But I think that's exactly coming full circle to your point of wanting to talk about liberatory leadership and saying this is in alignment with my value system, and this is really where this lands for me. And this is what feels really, really important at this point in my life with what I've done, with what I've given, with how I've shown up.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Yeah, that's exactly right. The challenge of holding those realities, seeing and understanding other people's needs and interests, and being aware of folks, I'm going to say ignorance around like, you know, I mean, decolonizing, and liberation, and freedom went from words that really weren't, I remember a funder once telling me that he'd like me to take liberation out of the name of my framework so that he could get funding for it. It was a white man of a large set of foundation and I didn't tell him anything. I didn't just say yes or no, I pretended I didn't hear him, and went on about my business. And so, I went from there, right? This being like a scary term, that, you know, I remember another person saying, "Well, it makes me think of like the Black Panther Party." And they were violent, and I was like, "Nope, not accurate." Right. 

And so, I went from that to all organizations saying decolonization, liberation, freedom, or conflating it, watering it down, sometimes in an effort to gain greater understanding, but oftentimes, it gets sort of sucked up by the system of regurgitation. And so, then folks don't understand what it really means, right? And so, it makes sense that, you know, I have to change and when you have a team of folks working with you, or you're seeking to build a team, right? Like, I was in the midst of like, really trying to build a team, and then I'm like, "Man, I need more money." Like, how am I going to hold the space of needing and wanting to grow for the work to be at the volume this deserves? And the people want is the quick, so, you know what I'm saying? Like, the quick money, you know, conversations. 

And so, yeah, it's a growth point for me again. I've never been in a situation where I thought I wanted a whole team of folks. I had gotten to a point where I was like, "I'm good being solo over here, you know, I'm cool." And then, I was like, "Nah, nah, nah. That's not good. Like, that's not sustainable. Like, I need to grow." 

And so, once I got to the point, I was like, "I'm going to grow, I'm going to grow to this Kindred Wellness." But to be out here, it's like, at the same time, society was like, "Can we go back to that checkbox." You know? And so, it's super important, right? To be like water, like, and to really like, again, not personalize it, but be personal, right? To go deeper with myself and to be candid with the folks that I might be able to be in partnership with, right? And the folks that I have the honor of having on my team right around, this is supposed to happen you all. We making some decisions, usually make decisions for [FOREIGN LANGUAGE 00:41:14]. And for translation, [FOREIGN LANGUAGE 00:41:15] is money, all right. [INDISCERNIBLE 00:41:20] make decisions for what's going to be profitable, but what is a liberation-focused healing entrepreneurial journey. it can't be rooted in capitalism. But it also means you can't live, and you can't exist in a capitalistic society if you don't have it.

PATRICK CASALE: And that's the polarizing piece. 

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: That's the catch-22 here is standing firm in value versus can't pay rent and [CROSSTALK 00:41:53] or [INDISCERNIBLE 00:41:56]. And it's so fucking hard. But I think at the end of the day it feels so much more rewarding and fulfilling to be consistent and to show up the way that you want to show up. 

And, you know, I've wrestle with that a lot in my group practice because our one of our values is people over profit. So, I know I'm making significantly less money, but I also know we need to pay the bills and keep the lights on and pay all the things that we do to make sure clients are coming in the door. But even that is challenging. So, just staying true to your values and just showing up as authentically as possible, I think, is-

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: As possible. 

PATRICK CASALE: That's what makes this all worth it, in my opinion. It makes the job a hell of a lot more fulfilling, it makes the relationships a hell of a lot more authentic and connected. And I just think that you're doing absolutely incredible work. And this has really been one of the most enjoyable conversations I've had. And I mean that. Just everything you've got going on is really amazing.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Thanks, Patrick. It's been a shit show. But I'm glad it looks nice [INDISCERNIBLE 00:43:15].

PATRICK CASALE: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:43:18] piece though, that has been a shit show and yet you're showing up.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the thing about the essence of like liberatory leadership is showing up. It's staying there when you really want to run away. I was reading a quote from, I don't want to mess up his name, so I'm going to pull it up so that I can say it correctly. Put it in my stories, one moment. The quote is from Bayo Akomalafe. And I'm not going to read the entire quote, but the parts of it that really resonated with me this morning was if healing is not the goal where else to go, right? This is the takeoff point of fugitive practice. It is not a question that desires answer. It is an unanswerable question. 

And the fugitive practice, the question is only how do I get out of here? Not where am I going? And so, it makes me think about, right? That decision to stay, and to be with your difficult emotions, to choose to be authentic, to cry with your colleagues when, you know, as a boss you're not supposed to be crying out because they're supposed to keep their shit together, right? You know? Like, you're not supposed to be, you know, doing too much of the [INDISCERNIBLE 00:45:08] too much of the connection, the depth when money is involved. When I read that post and put it on my stories this morning it made me think, okay, so the fugitive of practice or the status quo is how can I get out of here? I just need this shit to be over. What do everybody else be doing? Or what are the folks be saying? I'll get somebody else to do it, right? Like, don't want to be here. That's the fugitive practice. The fugitive practice maintains the status quo, it is not liberatory, right?

Liberatory leadership, liberatory work, if you've been guided by me, and my works, liberation-focused healing doesn't always feel good. It's just like when you're in therapy, and you start to actually get to the crux of what the fuck is going on. And you're like, "Yikes, this does not feel good." But if you can go through it, you be okay with, maybe, I don't know the answer, you get okay with, okay, if you slow down, and you allow yourself to be there, then, you know, maybe the answer is there isn't one. You know what I mean? Maybe part of the liberation, the liberatory practice, part of the liberatory leadership is being okay with not knowing, and figuring it out together, and being okay with everybody sort of contributing to that, and life contributing to that, and recognizing that, like, time ain't even real, you know? It's not real, but we have to pay attention to it because of those confines. And so, it's being fluid, it is absolutely acknowledging all of those things. 

So, you know, I feel like, what I have been trying to do is resist the urge to take the exit, right? The exit being, I'm going to go watch the HGTV, figure out where were, now, you all weren't here, you all weren't listening before, we was talking about what I do when I'm doing nothing. And what I do is watch House Hunters International, so I can figure out where my escape route is, right? Like, I want to go live somewhere else, and you know, live this fantasy life, and I still am going to go live somewhere else, but the intention, right? Resisting the fugitive practice is to say, I'm not going to get out of here and completely abandon the work because it's too hard. I can go and figure out more about myself in this new space, right? I can go and let myself be seen in this new space. And maybe the answer is in relationship and love.

PATRICK CASALE: Love it. I hope all of this really resonates for everyone listening and that it makes you start to think a bit differently if it hasn't. And I really just appreciate you sharing your story, and all this really wonderful wisdom, and advice, and guidance around a topic that I think is really, really crucial. So, just want to thank you for coming on, and making the time, and just showing up as authentically as you could.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Thanks, Patrick. Thanks for having me. Thanks for sitting in the unknown with me. Yes, I appreciate you.

PATRICK CASALE: Likewise, and I'm looking forward to working together as well. Tell the audience where they can find more of Kindred Wellness, and what you're doing, and how they can access your information.

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Awesome. So, my own miniature commercial got you. You can find me at shawnamurraybrowne with an E .com. Not the color you all, add the E. That's the first thing. You can follow me on Instagram @HealASista, not sister, sista, S-I-S-T-A. You follow me, all right. You can follow me, or you can find me on LinkedIn. Just search Shawna Murray- Browne with an E, you all. And I also have a Patreon that you can learn more about if you go to shawnamurraybrowne.com and scroll all the way down, it'll send you to the links. Yeah, I'll be on there, you know? Sometimes I don't, sometimes I lay down, but generally speaking, you can find me in the stories on Instagram and you can always contact me through my website.

PATRICK CASALE: That was a wonderful pitch by the way, so thank you for that. Sounds like you've had to say that quite a few times, so…

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: And listen and people love... they cut one off, they'd be like Shawna Browne, nope. Shawna Brownie, no, Murray Browne you all with an E, all right? Soon to be doctor. You know, I'm going to put that in there because in a couple months, you're all going to hear I'm adding some other sauce to it, you know, it's going to be doctor.

PATRICK CASALE: I introduced you that way, so, it kind of feels like-

SHAWNA MURRAY-BROWNE: Well, I know. I want to let you do it. I'm going to let you do it, Patrick because it's about to be true, couple months, couple months in 2023.

PATRICK CASALE: Congratulations on that. That's a huge, huge accomplishment. I could not do the dissertation piece. I could barely do the research class in fucking graduate school, so more power to you. But that is really amazing, amazing accomplishment. And thanks again for coming on. All of that information will be in the show notes for everyone so you have easy access to it. And I just want to thank everyone for listening to the All Things Private Practice Podcast. New episodes on all major platforms. Like, download, subscribe, and share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway, we'll see you next week. Thanks, Shawna.