Show Notes

As mental health professionals, we are overdue for a change in how we approach healing and support. In this episode, Patrick Casale talks with Dr. Colleen Cira—a nationally recognized trauma expert, group practice owner, and more—about the limitations of traditional one-on-one talk therapy and the urgent need for more community-focused solutions.

Here are 3 key takeaways:

1. The Traditional Model Leaves People Out: One-on-one talk therapy is valuable, but it’s rooted in a medical model that assumes a “sick person/expert fixer” dynamic. This leaves many clients—and even therapists—feeling disconnected and unsupported.
2. Community is Essential for Healing: Dr. Colleen Cira emphasized that lasting change and resilience come when people find belonging and connection, not just intellectual insight. Group work, community events, and workshops can be more accessible and impactful for many clients.
3. Vulnerability and Relatability Matter: Both Patrick and Dr. Cira touched on the power of therapists showing up as real, imperfect humans. Modeling authenticity helps clients feel seen and safe—and avoids burnout for clinicians.

More about Dr. Colleen Cira:

Dr. Colleen Cira is a Licensed Clinical Psychologist, Nationally Recognized Trauma Expert, and the Founder and Executive Director of both Cira Center for Behavioral Health, PC (CCBH) and Cira Center Consulting, LLC (CCC).

Dr. Cira received both her Masters and Doctorate from the Illinois School of Professional Psychology and has been practicing in the field since 2001. She is a highly sought-after national neurodivergent and trauma expert who has appeared in dozens of publications, podcasts, live news, and radio, including NBC, ABC, US News and World Report, The Chicago Tribune, The Chicago Suntimes, Fast Company, Real Simple, Reader’s Digest, Yahoo! Lifestyle, Slate, and Bustle, among others. Dr. Cira was also named one of the “Top 100 Women in Chicago Making a Difference” by Today’s Chicago Woman. Dr. Cira is a trauma and anxiety expert, clinical supervisor, writer, speaker, consultant, activist, wife, and mommy.

• Website: ciracenter.org
• Instagram: @drcolleencira
• Facebook: Colleen Duffy Cira 

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the All Things Private Practice podcast. I am joined today by Dr. Colleen Cira, who is a licensed clinical psychologist, nationally recognized trauma expert, and the founder and executive director of both the Cira Center for Behavioral Health and Cira Center Consulting. 

Dr. Cira received both her master's and doctorate from Illinois School of Professional Psychology, and has been practicing in the field since 2001. She is a highly sought-after national neurodivergent and trauma expert who has appeared in dozens of publications, podcasts, live news, and radio, including NBC, ABC, U.S. News, and World Report. And the Chicago Tribune, the Chicago Sun-Times, Fast Company, Real Simple, Reader's Digest, Yahoo Lifestyle [CROSSTALK 00:01:39]-

COLLEEN CIRA: Blah, blah, blah. 

PATRICK CASALE: Dr. Cira was also named one of the top 100 women in Chicago, making a difference by Today's Chicago Woman. That's awesome, by the way. 

COLLEEN CIRA: Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: Dr. Cira is a trauma and anxiety expert, clinical supervisor, writer, speaker, consultant, activist, wife, and mommy. I was almost going to say mom, but…

COLLEEN CIRA: I'm still a mommy in my house.

PATRICK CASALE: Lots of cool accolades there. I always hate when people read my bio in front of me. It [CROSSTALK 00:02:09]-

COLLEEN CIRA: I know. It's so cringing.

PATRICK CASALE: Like, we also need to, I think, celebrate the fact that we're doing this incredible work. And I think you deserve to be recognized for that. So…

COLLEEN CIRA: Thank you.

PATRICK CASALE: With all those things that I just listed, thanks for coming on and making the time to be here. 

COLLEEN CIRA: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm so thrilled. 

PATRICK CASALE: So, I admittedly told you beforehand that I hadn't read what you wanted to talk about, which is quite common for me. And then, you mentioned you want to talk about how, at some point in time, during the therapy journey, and maybe just in general, that one-on-one therapy doesn't really cut it. Like talk therapy, it doesn't really get the job done for a lot of people.

COLLEEN CIRA: For a lot of people, yeah. I think that traditional talk therapy, right? Which came from the medical model, which is essentially a sick person seeking out an expert to fix them, right? I don't think any therapist would frame it that way, nor thinks about it that way, but that's the origin story of our field, right? And I think it's archaic. And I think it leaves a lot of people out. And that's coming from, you know, a psychologist of a long-time group practice owner. But I've also been in therapy half of my life, right?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, same, same. 

COLLEEN CIRA: Yeah. A big fan of therapy. But I think there's some things we can do better.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I think that's well said. I think there's a paradox here, right? Like, also a group practice owner, so it's interesting to think about it from the perspective of, okay, we have businesses that support our livelihoods. We have been in the field for a long time. We participate as a client and... Like, the asterisk of the other side of the coin of like, yeah, this isn't that useful in so many circumstances and context. 

COLLEEN CIRA: Right.

PATRICK CASALE: Like, I think it's invaluable to have that one-on-one space to talk about you, because in this society, we don't have that opportunity very often. And shouldn't we be focused more on, like, community and community collective healing? 

And you know, I had this Asheville therapist on probably over two years ago, Elizabeth McCorvey. And we were talking about the mental health industrial complex and tearing it down. And like, how community healing is what works. And how individual healing is really more of just like a very privileged place to be. And so-

COLLEEN CIRA: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: It's, you know, like, either I have health insurance that covers therapy, which is rare in this fucking country, or I have the money to pay someone out of pocket, which is rare in this fucking country.

COLLEEN CIRA: Right.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, and if you don't have either of those things, then you're kind of screwed.

COLLEEN CIRA: Even the process of finding a therapist. Like, I am a therapist. And I admin a Facebook group for local therapists in my community. And whenever someone in my family needs therapy, like, I get paralysis and dread. And if someone with that amount of privilege, like me, struggles to find a therapist, it feels like an impossible scenario, especially when people are already struggling. Now, going to, like, navigate this insane world, whoo, it's just a lot.

PATRICK CASALE: It's a lot. You know, I just started looking for my own therapist again, and it's hard because I have two podcasts that a lot of people listen to in this field. I have a large social media following. And every time I try to find a therapist, it's really cringy. Like, I'll make posts that are very specific. And we all joke about the fact that, like, someone will be like, “Looking for a telehealth therapist in North Carolina, Blue Cross Blue Shield on these issues.” And someone will be like, “I live in Texas and don't take Blue Cross, but I'm available.” And it's like, “What the fuck are you talking about?”

COLLEEN CIRA: Just in case you don't find what you're looking for? 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, it's always framed that way, “In case you don't find what you're looking for.” Or I'll get people bombarding me via DM of like, “I can help you. I listen to your podcast.” I'm like, “No, I don't like that.” 

So, it's admittedly, like, very complicated for me. So, I have to, like, cast a very, very wide net, even though I'm trying specifically to look for a very certain person. And I've been in therapy since I was five. So, like, I'm very savvy in that process. 

I think about the people who are not or who haven't had that opportunity or that privilege to be in and out of this type of support, and how many people get left behind because we don't have the resources to support everybody.

COLLEEN CIRA: That's exactly right. So, it's inaccessible for a million reasons, right? Like time, money, resources, bandwidth, childcare, the ability to even have enough executive functioning skills to remember to show up on time, to carve out that hour. Like, it’s inaccessible for a lot of folks, just before you even start. 

And then, once you're there, because it is housed in this medical model, and I'm not above this. I think it's very easy for therapists to fall into the role of savior, or fixer, or to feel all this responsibility of like, “I have to make this better for this person.” 

And that, again, it's built into the system. Like, we don't have to feel guilty about that. We don't have to feel ashamed about that. How could we not, at some point, begin to operate through that lens, when that is what is baked into our role, because of the origin story, you know?

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, yeah. And, you know, grad school drills that into your head. In community mental health, that's drilled into your head. And I always think that you get into the field for a lot of reasons, to, like, heal yourself through the work that you do. And I think, then there's a divergence, right? Like, if you're not watching this on video, like, I’m using my hands to diverge, but like, I think there's a divergence, the camp that's like, I got into this field to heal myself through this work. And I do, almost unintentionally and sometimes intentionally, create relationships with clients where they rely on me, where it's very coded. 

COLLEEN CIRA: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: I can't step away. I can't take care of myself. I feel guilt to take a vacation. My clients need me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then the other divergence is like, I'm going to do a lot of my own work while simultaneously helping other people. And I'm going to evolve as a human and acknowledge that, like, I'm just one person in this person's life. Like, yes, I'm a support system, but I cannot be the everything for all of the clients on my caseload, because if you try to do that, it's not fair to your clients. And you're also destroying yourself in the process, which we [CROSSTALK 00:09:05]-

COLLEEN CIRA: That’s right.

PATRICK CASALE: …martyred, I can't say that word. As a martyr…

COLLEEN CIRA: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: We try to do it all of like, and then we see all these posts, right? In the Facebook groups, “I'm so burnt out.”

COLLEEN CIRA: I'm so burnt out.

PATRICK CASALE: “I can't even eat a lunch. I can't go to the bathroom during the day.”  

COLLEEN CIRA: Right.

PATRICK CASALE: And then, that vicarious trauma carries over. And then, all of a sudden, it's like, “I got to leave the field. Like, I can't do this.”

COLLEEN CIRA: That's right, right? And how many times do we see that happen when I think part of the multifaceted solution there is recognizing, again, how the system impacts, like, if you are a full-time therapist at a group practice, you have to see a lot of people probably in order to make the kind of money that you need to make. 

And when we're asleep in this process of I just… And how could you not be, you're on autopilot. You're seeing, you know, five, six, seven people a day. You're working hard. You're just doing all this stuff. I think it's easy to not recognize how we are unintentionally, unconsciously, inadvertently colluding in our own cage, right? In our own burnout, in the things that keep us stuck and feeling exhausted because we feel like we have to be everyone's everything, and we are supposed to be, again, no one would say fixing, but that's essentially, you know, what we're being asked to do? Somebody has depression, make it go away.

PATRICK CASALE: Well, if you accept insurance, that is kind of the role, right? Like, the insurance companies do not make billions upon billions of dollars to pay for ongoing, indefinite support.

COLLEEN CIRA: Right.

PATRICK CASALE: We pay for solutions. They want to see progress. 

COLLEEN CIRA: That's right.

PATRICK CASALE: Unrealistic expectations. They don't give a fuck about what your trauma history is. They just want to see that your CBT is going to make you think differently, and then you're no longer going to have emotional distress.

COLLEEN CIRA: That's exactly right. So, because we're in this system, it does lead us to fall into that role of like savior or fixer, which, of course, leads to burnout. And I don't think we need to stop doing individual one-on-one therapy, right? But I do think we need to really look at the system and our role with open eyes and see who is benefiting, who is not. 

And then, this is a really cool opportunity to use our creativity or imagination to reimagine what else people need, other than 50 minutes once a week of primarily over-intellectualized cognitive exchanges. 

And that's a sweeping generalization, but that is what talk therapy, at least in my experience as a client, as a therapist, when people are in it for long enough, that's, I think, what a lot of folks tend to experience, you know?

PATRICK CASALE: 100%. I mean, I've experienced it as a client, I have experienced it as a therapist, where maybe you've seen someone for years, right? And nobody's supposed to have a favorite client or two, but we are human beings, and there are always going to be biases.

COLLEEN CIRA: Right. 

PATRICK CASALE: And you get to this point where you're like, why are we meeting? Like, we're just, you know, casually shooting the shit. And, you know, we're not working on anything. And I guess in my mind, I think that's okay to have a place where you are just going because you know it's your time, you get to talk about whatever you want. If you need it to be more casual, that's fine. But there's also, like, at what point are we doing a disservice to that person-

COLLEEN CIRA: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: ..to not like pushing them off and along on their journey, because so many of us struggle to have those types of conversations in the therapeutic space of like, I don't think this is serving you anymore. I don't think what we are doing is useful. And I see too many clients get strung along for a myriad of reasons, and ultimately, at the end of the day, become overly reliant on their therapist for everything. And that just makes me so sick to my stomach, because it does not have to be that way.

COLLEEN CIRA: Right. It doesn't. Again, I think the model and the history of our field really reinforces that idea. I just terminated with somebody who I'd been seeing for 10 years for this exact reason. We've been talking about termination, really, for years. Like, what would it look like? What does that mean? What's scares them about that process.

And when we were talking about the things, from my perspective, of what I felt like they really needed, they needed community, they needed friendship, they needed a support network, they needed to be heard, and seen. and understood by someone more than just me. If it really got me thinking, why haven't I worked harder to get this person back into their community? 

And the answer is because they don't really have community, but then it's my job to help them build it, to help them figure out what that would look like, and what would feel good to them, right? 

But again, the model keeps us stuck where it's just like, it's me and you, it's me and you. And I think part of decolonizing this work is helping people create or get back into their community, because if you as a therapist are the only person that client wants to talk to about the good things in their life, the hard things in their life, if you're the first person they want to tell, like, it means you have a beautiful relationship, but it probably also means that your client is too reliant on you as their only person. And that's a disservice.

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. I think it's a microcosm of a bigger issue, though, societally. I think in this society here in the United States, especially, our culture and community is so fractured and so isolated and siloed. 

Like, you think about how many people listening to this podcast, myself included, talk to their neighbors around them, have conversations within their communities, in general. Like, there are weeks where I don't leave my house very often, and more communities online, you feel so disconnected from people. I think it speaks volumes about the issues we have in this country where, like, people are splintered off into like these sectors of, like, this is my belief. So, I'm staunchly, like, steadfast here. I don't speak to people over here. 

When I travel abroad, I almost experience, like, overwhelming emotional grief and sadness of like, “Wow, life does not have to be as it is.”

COLLEEN CIRA: [CROSSTALK 00:19:00] right?

PATRICK CASALE: When I’m in Spain, when I'm in, like, parts of Portugal, when I'm in different parts of Europe, everyone is gathered together in community and supporting one another, having conversations, and like, lifting each other up. Kids are kicking soccer balls in the courtyards. People are drinking wine or coffee together and spending time. We don’t have that here?

COLLEEN CIRA: No, no.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:19:25].

COLLEEN CIRA: Absolutely. And that's what I really feel passionate about getting back to. And I think every time I say that, like, we have to get back to community, we have to get back to community, everyone's like, “But how? But how?” I’m like, “I don't know.” 

But I think it's still a worthy question to ask and to really open our minds up and get curious and creative about, how do we create therapy. And for group practice owners, how do we create community in our practices with our employees? How does that generalize to clients? 

And I think, really, part of what it comes down to is deconstructing some of these, again, ideas that we've been given about everything is so private in therapy, right? And there's all these laws, and HIPAA, and, you know, private health information, all these things, but it's all based on shame. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yap.

COLLEEN CIRA: It's all based on shame. And obviously, people should always have a choice about what they want to keep private and what they don't. But I've thought so much about, like, what if we had a gathering for the people who are clients in my practice? What if they could actually meet one another, and share their stories with one another, and hear that so many people are struggling with the exact same things they are? What would that do?

PATRICK CASALE: How often [CROSSTALK 00:20:42]-

COLLEEN CIRA: [CROSSTALK 00:20:43].

PATRICK CASALE: …you have the thought of like, if I could just connect client A with client B, they'd be like best friends, because they would really support one another. Yeah, I've had that thought before. And I've actually had that scenario where, like, that client A leaves my office, client B is coming in, they make eye contact, and I'm like, “You guys should be friends.” You know, like, “You guys should hang out.” But yeah.

COLLEEN CIRA: [INDISCERNIBLE 00:21:05].

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you know, like, you're absolutely right, though. Like, how do we do it in a way, because there's trickle down here too. So, as group practice owners, if we're not putting effort, and energy, and intention into creating community, our clinicians are coming to work very siloed, very disconnected, head down, do my job, go home, you know, and rinse and repeat. Opposed to if we create culture, and community, and connection, how often are we going to have people who are looking forward to work? How often are we going to have people who are like excited to share ideas, excited to collaborate, excited to kind of share those ideas with their clients and externally. So, I think there's a big delineation here. 

And then, I think, for the client’s sake, you know, you're absolutely right? Like, how do we make that happen in a way where people have those resources, where it's not just that 60-minute session after session after session, where they get to feel connected to other humans.

COLLEEN CIRA: Right, exactly. And I think for me, part of it means we have to step outside the systems that we've been given, right? Because, by law, we can't make those introductions, right? 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

COLLEEN CIRA: And so, it's like, we're in this system, and there's a lot of good to this system, as you talked about, right? Like, people need the space, and people need to dissect a recent neurodivergent diagnosis or a trauma history. Like, people do need a private safe space. We're not trying to get rid of that. And can we build something on the side that creates more community, that is outside of the confines of all of these structures that keep us silent and siloed? And I've been just giving a lot of thought about that. 

Again, there's no perfect answers, but I would love to invite group practice owners into that dialogue, or even just into that conversation with themselves, of their leadership team. What can we do to increase connection in our team? And then, how do we make that work for clients, too? 

PATRICK CASALE: Yep, yeah. I like where your head's at. I think one thing that immediately pops up for me, and it's not a all encapsulating answer, or even not feasible for everyone listening, but those of you who run groups, right? Like, within your group practices, that's a good way to get people connected for sure. I see a lot of like-minded people going to like a colleague of mine, Dr. Brittany Bate, here in Asheville or in Raleigh, their practice runs a lot of groups. So, there's a lot of like-

COLLEEN CIRA: Cool.

PATRICK CASALE: Life diagnosed autistic identification groups. Like groups of queer and trans people, groups for people who are AuDHD but like struggling with their businesses. So, one way to get people together who are going to have some shared identity and commonality. 

There's a nonprofit here in Asheville, which I wish was everywhere. It's called Seek Healing. And a good friend of mine was on the board for a long time. And their whole existence and job was… and Gabor Mate was like a consultant for this, is all about community and connection. It was focused mainly on addiction and substance use. Saying, like, you know, addiction is the opposite of community and connection. And then, that translated into more, like, just everyday mental health, opposite of community and connection. 

And all they do is focus on, like, building spaces where people can just go, and be heard, and be a part of, and feel some belonging, and how important that is in our society, is that feeling of belonging. And I do wish we just had more ways to access that as not only ourselves, but for our clinicians, for our clients, and in society as a whole.

COLLEEN CIRA: I love that, right? And thinking about, what if belonging was one of the main interventions that we used, right? What if that was one of the main things? Because I think about, and we can do this so many different ways in terms of belonging as well as accessibility, right? In thinking about, I would love to see group practices offering more workshops, groups, community events. Like, getting out into the communities and neighborhoods where they live, and hosting events, and doing it at different price points so that people can attend. 

I think that's an easy way to start getting people together outside of this one-on-one thing and encouraging vulnerability, which, of course, needs to start with ourselves, right? 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

COLLEEN CIRA: So, that's the other piece. To your point, the trickle-down effect, we can't really meaningfully do this work if we are still terrified of being vulnerable with others, if we struggle with having big feelings, or meltdowns, and feel tons of shame with that, right? Like, we have to be deconstructing for ourselves what our own cages look like in order to help anybody else get free.

PATRICK CASALE: It's really well said, yeah, absolutely. I think that so much like you've mentioned several times already, of like, the shame culture that exists within this profession, of like, everything's private, everything's secretive. You only tell people in these situations, and scenarios. 

And the stigma that still exists that is so prevalent around mental health in this culture, in this country, where it's still viewed as like, weakness, or deficit, or there is a disorder to be given, and this person is just defective. And it is a shame that we still have that in 2025, going into ‘26.

And I do think that you as a therapist, have to do the work and get more comfortable with the uncomfortable, because humanhood and personhood is messy and it is not sterile. It's not just like clipboards. It's not just like being robotic in session. I think that you need to show some personality and some personhood, because in my opinion, what offers people hope is that there is a light at the end of the tunnel that they see, that your therapist has bad days, your therapist struggles with time management, your therapist struggles with, you know, looking for their own therapy. Like, that stuff is what models humanity to me. And it's just so much more real-

COLLEEN CIRA: Yes.

PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:27:41] accessibility. And I always preach that relatability is accessibility.

COLLEEN CIRA: Yes [CROSSTALK 00:27:46].

PATRICK CASALE: 100% to like, you know, I just think that we need to do some big cultural overhauls within this profession.

COLLEEN CIRA: Agreed, agreed. And I think something that is inherent in what you're saying, and I want to name it specifically, is a really embodied approach to therapy, right? So many of us, when our nervous systems are fired up, and we're anxious, you know, I'm thinking about newer therapists, or even supervisors who are mentoring and supervising younger therapists, if our nervous systems are fired up. We're in our head. We're problem-solving, right? We're like, “Well, what do they need?” And I've got to do this and this and this. 

And I think one of the best things we can do as group practice owners with the people on our teams is help them get back in their bodies, bring bodies back into the therapy room, into the supervisory room, because we, just as a culture, over emphasize the intellectual, the cognitive, but our mind, our ego, our thoughts will lie to us. They will keep us stuck. But our body does it. And that can be really unpleasant. And I think especially therapists who are operating in this, like, I have to keep people safe and comfortable. And like, oh my God, what if they're crying too hard? Am I re-traumatizing?

Like, I think if we, again, start to deconstruct this model, we're not saviors, we're not fixers. We are with people on their journey, and we're walking our own journey, and everybody's radically responsible for our lives. But if we can do that together, we can do that in community, then maybe I'm less scared of my feelings, and maybe I'm less scared when you're having big feelings, and maybe we make more room for whatever is there to just be okay, rather than immediately pathologizing it, right? 

Because, like, I heard someone I was doing a training on neurodiversity, and somebody is like, “Well, what if they start to hyperventilate?” And it's like, well, that's an interesting thought, because when you're using a trauma lens, a pathologizing lens, hyperventilation is, like, indicative of huge overload, and whatever, and can be terrible. But there are other people using a breath work lens who pay hundreds of dollars, who have somebody induce hyperventilation. So, it's like, how much are we trusting people? How much are we trusting our bodies? You know, which, again, is just not built into the model we've been given.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, that's really well said. I think we're so inclined to try to fix when we feel uncomfortable. And it’s like newer therapists often struggle with therapeutic silence, right? As a intervention, where you sometimes have to sit with discomfort, and you just have to let it exist and acknowledge it, without reaching in to try to solve or fix it. And how often, like integration takes place when we are allowed to feel what's happening in our bodies, instead of trying to push it away or dissociate or, like reach for the next thing that's going to quickly give that band aid solution. 

And I get it. It's uncomfortable. I'm comfortable. I’m uncomfortable in my body all the time, so I totally get it. And I also think it's important to try to figure out ways to do that with more comfort, because I do think it's just a messy process. Like, being a human is messy. It's not easy, is.

COLLEEN CIRA: It is.

PATRICK CASALE: And it doesn't make it any less easy to be a therapist, or be the client, or vice versa. So, the acknowledgement, because there is that power differential and dynamic of, how do we even the playing field a little bit? And sometimes it is about allowing yourself to also be vulnerable in the therapy space, so that you don't have to look like this put together a person who has, because that does create power dynamic, and it creates inequity in that situation.

COLLEEN CIRA: And it burns us out as therapists to have to perform at that level every hour, every day. Like, it's too much. It's too much.

PATRICK CASALE: It's exhausting, it’s exhausting. 

COLLEEN CIRA: [CROSSTALK 00:31:42]. 

PATRICK CASALE: So, what an uplifting way to end that thought and conversation. But I think a good one overall, because ultimately, I do think you bring a great point to this topic of like, there's got to be different ways to do this stuff, because this is not sustainable. 

And you see people in like hordes, in exodus of this profession, because of insurance bullshit, because of low fees, because of burning yourself out, vicarious trauma. And I get it. I totally get it. And I understand why people turn into coaches because they're like less restriction, more autonomy, more ability to bring people together in community, right? So, I totally understand that. I think there's a lot to dissect and deconstruct. And I really appreciate you bringing this perspective today and having this conversation.

COLLEEN CIRA: Thank you for having me. It's so fun. I feel like I could keep talking to you about this forever. I'm so grateful for the time.

PATRICK CASALE: Will you tell everyone where they can find you, so that if they want to work with you, if they want to follow you, if they want to support you. And we will have all of Dr. Cira's information in the show notes as well, so that you have access to everything that she says.

COLLEEN CIRA: Yay. Thank you. So, you can find me at my business's website. So, www.ciracenter.org. You can also find me on socials. I'm on Instagram, and Facebook, and LinkedIn, all at Dr. Colleen Cira or Colleen Duffy Cira, one of the two. Yeah, and doing a lot of conversations about neurodivergence, and embodiment, and deconstructing these systems that we've been handed and trying to figure out, how do we build something more beautiful while still existing in these systems?

PATRICK CASALE: Love it. And again, we'll have everything that Dr. Cira listed in the show notes for everyone, so you have access to that. Thanks for coming on and making the time. 

To everyone listening to the All Things Private Practice podcast, new episodes are out on Saturdays in all major platforms and YouTube. You can like, download, subscribe, and share. 

Make sure to join us at Portland, Maine, September 1st to the third for the third annual Doubt Yourself, Do it Anyway summit. See you then. And we'll see you next week.