Show Notes

Navigating the in-between phases of life isn’t easy—especially for private practice owners, leaders, and entrepreneurs pivoting in uncertain times. In this episode, Patrick Casale and Imani Harrison talk about liminal spaces—those in-between moments when something has ended but the next phase hasn’t yet begun—offering valuable insight for anyone building something new, feeling stuck, or doubting what comes next.

3 Key Takeaways:

1. Growth Always Involves Endings: Every transition—whether chosen or forced—brings grief and discomfort. Each ending has valuable information, and sometimes things have to crumble for us to rebuild better.
2. Get Comfortable with Discomfort (and Unlearning): Our capitalistic upbringings push constant productivity. Unlearning this—embracing stillness, floating in liminal spaces, and slowing down—is not easy, but often necessary for realignment.
3. Zoom Out for Perspective: When you’re in a low or uncertain place, zoom out. Are you trending upward over time? Are you being intentional about your next steps? Sometimes you just need to trust the cycles, embrace the messy parts, and anchor into your resilience.

If you’re in the “messy middle” right now—personally or professionally—know you’re not alone. There’s beauty (and opportunity!) in the uncertainty.

More about Imani:

Imani Harrison, LCPC, MA is a therapist, facilitator, entrepreneur, and emerging speaker based in Champaign, IL. She is known for warmth that steadies and wit that keeps things honest — especially when people are in the in-between and scared AF. Her work is clinically grounded, shaped by lived experience, and deeply human. As a neurodivergent entrepreneur, she brings both structure and creative disruption to the spaces she leads.

Imani is the founder of Sankofa Healing & Wellness, where she provides therapy centered on reclamation, identity transformation, and the power of a healing relationship. She is also the co-founder of The Vitality Center, where she expands that support through teaching, facilitation, consultation, and coaching for clinicians, leaders, entrepreneurs, and organizations. Her work especially resonates with Black women leaders and neurodivergent creatives who are building lives and businesses that actually fit who they are becoming.

She blends clinical wisdom with intuitive insight — where depth, symbolism, and embodied awareness meet — helping people take aligned steps without contorting themselves into Westernized molds of what healing or success “should” look like. An idea midwife by nature, she helps people generate bold, purpose-filled possibilities and shape them into next steps that will actually be exciting about pursuing.

• Instagram: instagram.com/thevitality.center
• Linktree: linktr.ee/thevitalitycenter

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Transcript

PATRICK CASALE: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the All Things Private Practice podcast. I'm joined today by Imani Harrison, LCPC, and a master's level therapist, facilitator, entrepreneur, emerging speaker based in Champaign, Illinois. She is known for warmth that studies and wit that keeps things honest, especially when people are in the in between and scared as fuck. Her work is clinically grounded, shaped by lived experience, and deeply human. 

As a neurodivergent entrepreneur, she brings both structure and creative disruption to the spaces that she leads. Imani is the founder of Sankofa Healing and Wellness, almost messed those words up, where she provides therapy centered on reclamation, identity transformation, the power of healing relationships. She's also the co-founder of The Vitality Center, where she expands that support through teaching, facilitation, consulting, and coaching for clinicians, leaders, entrepreneurs, and organizations. 

Her work especially resonates with black women leaders and neurodivergent creatives who are building lives and businesses that actually fit who they are becoming. 

So, yeah, welcome to the show. I know you are nervous and excited. And I think that's kind of what we're going to talk about, is like. you keep talking about liminal spaces, so they must feel really, really important right now for you.

IMANI HARRISON: They are, because I'm in the thick of it. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Tell us more about what you mean by that. 

IMANI HARRISON: Well, it's pretty much about like, you know, experiencing when things end or fall away, whether abruptly, or like whether I chose it, or whether it was chosen for me, and then, things aren't quite moving past or into like a new beginning quite yet. It's this space where, like, it seems like nothing is happening. And it could feel kind of like a void.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep.

IMANI HARRISON: Like almost like a blank canvas.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What kind of feelings do you often experience in those spaces?

IMANI HARRISON: Fog, lots and lots of fog. Also, are you a Marvel fan?

PATRICK CASALE: I am, yeah. 

IMANI HARRISON: So, you know, on Ant-Man and the Wasp, Ghost. And she phrases, like I can feel that in my body. Like, it's almost like vibrating outward. There's almost like a nothingness and everything at the same time.

PATRICK CASALE: That's really well said. I love the Marvel reference. And, yeah, a nothingness and everything all at the same time. 

For me, liminal spaces feel really uncomfortable. And I'm trying to get more comfortable with the discomfort, because in liminal spaces I feel restless. I often feel like overly anxious about what's going on in the world around me, because I feel like it's kind of this in between, like you mentioned. I often find I feel that around like the holiday season, when a lot of society stops for several weeks to, like, do all the stupid holiday things. And like, I don't enjoy the holidays. So, then, I end up in this space where I'm like, I'm so uncomfortable. I have all this free time, and nothing's going on. Like, it feels like things are moving very slowly. It also feels like I'm like, starting to question everything and unravel a bit. So, my experiences with liminal spaces are like great discomfort and anxiety.

IMANI HARRISON: Yep, it's like, you feel this urge to move forward, but it's almost like, first of all, I speak in metaphor and song, so…

I see, like the Road Runner, I think. Like, before they get going, their legs are like moving, moving, moving. That’s what it feels, like you're running in circles, in place. The urge to move forward, but feeling like you're going nowhere. But then, also, this floating, ungrounded, unanchored shithole of a space. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it, that ungrounded, unanchored shit hole of a space, yeah.

IMANI HARRISON: Yeah. I'm just kind of navigating that and learning as I go, how to both exist in it and how to wade through it.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, that's well said. I know you mentioned, like when things end, whether you choose for them to end or they are outside of your control. And I think a lot of people experience that in their small business journeys, of things coming to a natural conclusion, maybe you get to decide when that happens, if you're lucky enough to do so, or things coming to an end for a lot of different external factors that you don't have control over. Either way, when that stuff happens, I do think there is grief in some of that. Anything that comes to an end, I think, there's some natural form of grief. 

And I talk about pivoting on here a lot. And I think that's where I find myself right now, is in that liminal space, career-wise, identity-wise, professionally, of like, a lot of the things I've worked really hard for are coming to an end. A lot of them, because I'm choosing for them to come to an end. Yet, there's still that discomfort of what comes next and not knowing the answers. And that can feel so unsettling. 

IMANI HARRISON: Yeah. You know, I talk about this with my clients a lot. What I'm noticing is that, I mean, one, these growth cycles of endings, and transitions, and beginnings, they’re something that we experience throughout our lifetimes. Like, it's just our life experience as humans, but I'm noticing that collectively, a lot of people are going through these almost, like, at the same time. And what I'm noticing is, or in sharing with them, is like nervousness or like, anxiety and excitement are two sides of the same coin.

PATRICK CASALE: Yep.

IMANI HARRISON: And learning how to lean into, not ignore, but, like, lean into excitement of it and not the excitement of that comes with, like, only needing to engage in action, but the excitement of like that, I guess, lives in hope.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah.

IMANI HARRISON: I've spent like so much time… So, I started my practice in 2022. And I thought that, and who knows what’s going to happen later, but I thought that I was like, okay, I want to go into group practice, or I started your practice eventually. And like, when I was still at my other practice, I wrote this list, and, like, all the things that I wanted to include in it. I didn't even know I was visioning at the time. Just like, yes, this is what's going to happen. Like, all this bitch shit. You know, it's going to be a holistic wellness center and this, and that, and that. And I'm going to have interns and all this stuff. 

And so, when I started my practice in 2022, I was like, “Okay, yeah, that's where I'm headed.” And then, I helped a couple people leave. Well, I didn't help them, like, oh, encourage them to leave. But they were like, “Okay, I'm starting my practice. I'm leaving this practice. Now, can you help me out?” I was like, “Yeah, it's okay. Let me add that to the list.” Like, helping people kind of navigate those transitions.

And then, one of those people, we worked really well together at the other practice, and we were like, “Okay, let's start thinking about what we're going to do?” Well, kind of. It's not really how it happened. 

I'm going to pause a little bit, because I can go on and talk forever about all the things. Is this okay? 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, for sure. 

IMANI HARRISON: Okay, cool. Okay, so she was looking to invest in, like, mental health, and were like, “Yes.” And he, like, had that big bucks. And we were like, “Okay, let's go.” And he's like, “Okay, send me a proposal.” So, this was our opportunity to kind of dream big, because we knew that he had a lot of money. And so, we created this business plan and all these things that we wanted to have in the practice. And then, we sent him. I mean, we spent a long time on that thing.

And we sent him the proposal to forever get back to us. And then, later, he was like, “Yeah, my accountant told me that I should invest in the Starbucks instead.” Motherfucker. “Oh, really?” And so, that moment that, and I hadn't even processed this. Like, this is the first time I processed that. That was an ending. And there was so much grief involved with that. But life was like, both of our personal lives were kind of chaotic at the time, too. So, it was like, okay, let's put this on hold for a little bit. But it was just like, “Shit. We did all this.” 

And we came back later. We're like, “We don't want to let that die.” And so, we were like, “But we're not going to have this much money as we thought we were going to have.” So, it forced us to kind of go back to the basics.

But what I learned is that it was beautiful that we were able to spend all that time conceptualizing everything that we wanted. And I was able to pull in like the vision that I created, even before I started my practice. And then, we were able to use that to kind of start a foundation. And that vision helped us even begin to dream that something was possible. So, even though it didn't happen the way that we thought it was going to happen, and that ending involved a lot of grief and a lot of uncertainty. And it was hurt. We were angry at the guy. And we were grateful because we were able to envision what it could be without thinking of the barriers of what was in the way.

PATRICK CASALE: Right.

IMANI HARRISON: So, I say all that to say, like, every ending has information in it. And the outcome isn't what you thought it was going to be, it can land you exactly where you need to be. 

And so, I mean, I've noticed that happening over and over, like I've mentioned before, that our most recent iteration of things, like we were like, “Okay, let's hire whatever that we couldn't find anybody hire. Okay, well, maybe it's not time to hire or whatever. And so, let's just start with interns.” Because we were aligning ourselves with the University of Illinois, and made really great connections there, and really, really enjoyed their program. Like, their clinical mental health counseling program is phenomenal. Like, they are, like, innovative and really identifying, like, what therapists actually need to know when they come into the field. And so, were like, “Yes, let's partner with them.” So, we did all that stuff. And then, that was in 2024.

And so, then finally, in 2025, everything started to slow down. Like, my caseload at that time was booming. I never had a week where I had to worry about if it was going to be full or not. And then, 2025 was like, meh. My case load was really shitty. I wasn't getting as much referrals. And there's a lot of changes that were happening. 

And like one of our big health insurance providers, that was our highest payer, they announced this year that they were going to be closing. And they are, or were, I guess, well, just about the largest provider in the area. So, like university employees, I guess, received insurance through them. Most of our hospitals, we have two main hospitals. Their employees had their insurance. It’s like, everybody was like, “Holy shit. Our highest payer is going to be ending.”

And so, anyway, so money was decreasing, and client referrals were decreasing. So, then when the interns came, like, I don't have anybody to send to them. And my colleague didn't either. And so, we kind of, like, had this, like, guilt and shame moment. Like, total vulnerability. We had to tell the internship liaison that, like, we have to release them because we can't give them clinicians. And like, I felt like a shit face. Like, I cannot believe this just happened. This goal that we had for building up a group practice through interns and, like, really being intentional about teaching them. 

And it was great. Like, I really loved mentoring them in the beginning, like, obviously, without any clients. But then, it was just like, after that, “I don't know what I want to do.” And then, like, my personal life was like a huge ass liminal space. So, it's like, my whole life is just like, “All right, no rules apply.” So, yeah, that is where I'm at right now. 

And I'm just noticing collectively that so many of us, so many people in, like, society, is in this tower moment too, of like, everything is crumbling and collapsing. And I just had to, like, step back as an observer and like, there has to be a point to this, because we all can't be going through similar collapses at the same time for no reason. So, yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: So, with all that being said, what do you think that answer is? What do you think that reason is for the synchronistic collapse?

IMANI HARRISON: Well, I think some shit had to crumble in order for us to build something new and better in its place. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Yeah, I think we're seeing, you know, a whole lot of our society rapidly shift and change for better or worse, probably worse for most of our opinions, in a lot of ways. And a lot of things that are happening. And then, when you're a small business owner, you're also impacted by what's happening personally. And they often go hand in hand, right? 

IMANI HARRISON: Mm-hmm (affirmative.)

PATRICK CASALE: So, like, any season of dormancy, or slow down, or hibernation for myself, I always like in the moment, I'm panicked. But then, when I take a step back and look at it, it's like, oh, this is, for me, kind of seasonal in terms of, like, energy swings and capacity over the years of like, there are going to be a lot of times where I don't have the energy or the capacity to create, or to feel connected to, or anchored into something. And then, they're going to be these sparks and these bursts that happen throughout that timeline. But my brain and my nervous system are like, “No, we need that spark all the time. Like we need to feel alive all the time. We need to feel creative all the time.”

And I've had to really get used to just saying, like, no, that's really not realistic for most people, especially for those of us with more sensitive nervous systems and more propensity for burnout. And I think our field is in a very interesting space right now where there's a lot of burnout, there's a lot of vicarious trauma, there's a lot of questioning in terms of what comes next. There's a lot of questioning about referrals slowing down, insurance rates decreasing, insurance companies opting to go with platforms like Teladoc and other online entities that we won't be able to have access to as providers. And it's going to start to feel really strange. 

And I think this is where you're going to start to see a lot of people really step back from both a panic perspective, but also, a perspective of like, what do I want my next iteration and chapter of my career to look like? What do I have control over? What don't I have control over? Where am I going to put my energy? Because it's not a finite resource. It goes away very, very quickly. So, it's going to be an interesting time. And I think a lot of that is going to be getting comfortable with these uncomfortable spaces. And, yeah, that's kind of an interesting outlook, for sure.

IMANI HARRISON: You know, what I'm learning is that we are attempting to, well, many of us, I think, attempting to unlearn being socialized in a capitalistic society.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah.

IMANI HARRISON: And capitalism tells us, “Go, go, go. Produce, produce, produce.” And it can do that, because it knows that there's somebody else to take your place. And there is no one to take my place if I exit out of it. And so, we have to switch into a different model. And in learning what that is, is kind of where we're at, and unlearning all your social conditioning, and trauma, and all that shit like that is not easy. 

PATRICK CASALE: No.

IMANI HARRISON: It is not easy. It's deeply uncomfortable. But okay, I have this kind of gross, I guess sometimes a confused metaphor, now analogy, and I look it up all the time, and I never remember which is which. 

But I think about, like, if you have a pimple, but it's not, like, a whitehead, yet, it's just kind of red, and it hurts. Then you're like, “Okay, let me be more intentional about my skin regimen.” And whatever. 

And then, like, then it starts to get white, and you're like, “What the fuck? It looks even worse than it did. Before it was just hurting.” And it's like, no, all of the things are being drawn out. And so, like, you can see them more clearly now. And yes, it looks worse in this present moment, but only because it is being drawn out. And soon you're going to, like, feel the relief of it not being there, but it's going to be the ugly part first. And we're in the ugly part.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. That's a good analogy, for sure. And I think it's an interesting perspective for those of you listening of thinking like, do you find yourself in this liminal space, in this what you refer to often as the messy middle, right? 

So, where do you find yourself right now in your career? Does that place feel aligned with your values? Are you feeling fulfillment in what you're doing every day? Are you thinking about what comes next? Do you feel pulled in multiple directions? I think all of those things are things to be really intentional about right now and really paying attention to that stuff, because you kind of get one shot at this, right? Like we-

IMANI HARRISON: That we know of.

PATRICK CASALE: That we know of. So, it's just like, how can we best use the time that we have in a way that works the best for what we want to see come out of our lives, and our careers, and our legacies?

IMANI HARRISON: Those are really great questions. And will probably need to be asked multiple times of ourselves. And I think that's another thing to be comfortable with, too, is when you feel like, “Oh, I found the answer.” Or, “I feel really good right now.” You know, you talk about those ebbs and flows, and then all of a sudden, it's like, back into this panic mode, and you're like, “But wait. I thought I had it figured out.”

Maybe parts of it, no. And it's like getting comfortable in the cycle of it all, accepting that this is this is it. When we are in that low part, it doesn't mean anything is necessarily wrong. 

And I also give the analogy of like, do you, like, invest in, like, I don't know, any of those apps like Acorns or anything like that.

PATRICK CASALE: I used to, yeah, yeah.

IMANI HARRISON: And like, you look in one day and it's like, “Oh, shit. It's dipped so low.” I tell my client to zoom out. Are you trending upward? Because if you look too closely at this one moment, it might be a down. But if you're looking overall, are you heading in the direction that is in alignment with what feels right? What feels like vitality? Like, the energy of being, and like following your passion?

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. That's a great reflection question and a good exercise for a lot of us to zoom out a little bit, because far too often, we are so focused on what's right in front of us without really paying attention to everything else that's happening at the same time, or that has been going on, or the work that you've put in to get to where you got. And I think we often focus on the negative as human beings. We can ignore all of the positive signs and experiences, and just focus on that one bad interaction, that one bad review, that one time something didn't go right. And it's really easy to start feeling like things are going to start crumbling, like the floor is finally going to drop out from under you. 

And I think it's important to just anchor into those moments of like, that adversity and that resilience of, hey, small business ownership is tough. Being a person is challenging, in general, the world is really noisy. So, when we find ourselves in these liminal spaces, to be able to try really hard to see the gray and to hold on to the nuance, because I think a lot of us really gravitate towards like black and white.

IMANI HARRISON: Yeah. And there's beauty in the liminal. I was talking to a client the other day about the blank canvas idea, and it's like, it's a blank canvas. And sometimes it's really scary, like, where do I start? But it's also really exciting, too, because it's like, wow, I get to create something new. 

And it's important to remember that everything that came before you don't just leave it there. Like, you bring it with you. And so, when you're in this space of felt nothingness or perceived nothingness, it's not nothing.

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, exactly. That's really well said. It's not nothing. And for those of you who feel that way, that's why I always like timeline exercises. I like zooming out. I like looking at different parts of life, because I can think that most of us can identify some moments that have been really pivotal for ourselves, personally and professionally. 

And I know for me, there have been so many moments where I've been like, “This is it. Like, everything's done. This has been a failure. I'm going to struggle forever. Things will never turn around.” And it's so easy to get caught up in that, to just not think about all the hard work, all of the effort and intention that has gone into that curve. And that is something to anchor into when things get tough, of like, what are the moments that we can think about where you maybe did face some adversity, you did the work, you came out the other side. And maybe you're not exactly where you want to be in this moment, but that doesn't mean that you haven't set yourself perfectly up for the next moment.

IMANI HARRISON: Exactly. And usually, that's the case. 

PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely. So, I like this conversation. I like that you are thinking about this a lot and that you might consider starting a podcast on this topic. 

IMANI HARRISON: I'm working on it.

PATRICK CASALE: This is an accountability measure. So, you know now it's on air. So, we'll have to circle back to this in a couple of weeks, once it comes out. 

And yeah, so for those who are listening, like, just share a little bit about why you want to start this podcast. Let's give that a plug. 

IMANI HARRISON: Well, it can feel really alone in that messy middle. We can feel like everything is collapsing and I don't know what to do, and we just feel so lost. And I think, things like social media and stuff, everybody's used to seeing everybody's highlights when they're sharing all this good stuff, and then when we don't have anything like that to post, or we feel like we don't, or, you know, it's like, “Well, shit, I'm doing nothing.” So, I want everybody to feel like their experience is a common human experience.

And I am, you know, experiencing life as I live it, too. And so, it's more of a, I'm hoping it can be community conversation, because I want to bring in other people and get to know, like, where they're at, and whether they, or are on a kind of a platform. And they're looking back at where they just, you know, cross this threshold, or they're just in this ending, or they're right in the thick of the middle. Wherever you are at in the cycle, you'll find something that resonates in what I hope to talk about in the podcast, what I will talk about will talk about.

PATRICK CASALE: What you will talk about. Let's switch that mindset up. 

IMANI HARRISON: Yes, yes. Also, I'm looking to do some retreats kind of around the same idea, but more focusing on, like learning to surrender in the liminal, like floating in that space, learning to float, and kind of learning how to soften and be in stillness. But also, you know, surrender is an action. And sometimes we feel like it's not, it's like we feel like, “Oh, this is giving up if I just sit in stillness and do nothing. It feels like, meh.” So, I'm hoping to build some retreats around just community and space to just be while we're in the middle. 

Sure, there's plenty of other things to come from there. That's just the way my brain works. But that's where I'm hoping to kind of start. 

PATRICK CASALE: I love that. Sounds like it feels very aligned right now. So, we're going to hold you accountable to this. This is going to be a thing that you are going to do. 

IMANI HARRISON: Yeah.

PATRICK CASALE: And yeah, I really appreciate you coming on, and sharing a little bit of your story and having this conversation.

For those who want to find you, follow you, and support you, where can they do that? We'll add this to the show notes as well for everyone listening.

IMANI HARRISON: Well, right now you can find my website at www.thevitality.centre. Now, that's in the middle, too. It is not quite in alignment with this new direction that I'm going in. But if you want to see what's ending, there'll be some stuff there. 

So, you could also find me on social media. I'm working on doing a little bit more engaging there, but I think it's The Vitality, that center there as well for Instagram, and don't do a ton of engagement on Facebook, but The Vitality Center is on there too. 

I'm hoping that this podcast is like, going to help me to be more accountable with those things, too. I am going to increase my engagement in those areas, but I'm very big on foundation. So, like making sure that for better, for worse, you know, trying to be a little too perfectionist and, like, overanalyzing everything. But I do think it's important for me to have a stable foundation of what exactly I want to put out and what's the intention behind it. Because my brain can go 80 bajillion different directions. And I want to make sure that certain things have a clear message behind them. 

PATRICK CASALE: Sure, makes sense. It also sounds like maybe some of your retreat advice of surrendering at some point in time as well. So, looking forward to what you are creating, and we will stay up to date on that and share everything once we have it. So, thank you so much for coming on and making the time. 

IMANI HARRISON: Oh, yeah, and I am hoping to increase my activity as a speaker and facilitator, so I'm open to those opportunities as well. 

PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, put it out into the world. This is a solstice Sunday, apparently [CROSSTALK 00:35:17]-

IMANI HARRISON: Yes, it is.

PATRICK CASALE: …needs to happen. All right, everyone. Thanks for listening to All Things Private Practice. Episodes are out on Saturdays on all major platforms and YouTube. Like, download, subscribe, share. Doubt yourself, do it anyway. We'll see you next week.